Re: [rtcweb] Video codec selection: Dropping options
Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> Thu, 28 November 2013 18:06 UTC
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From: Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>
Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2013 10:05:18 -0800
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To: Harald Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no>
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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Video codec selection: Dropping options
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On Thu, Nov 28, 2013 at 9:59 AM, Harald Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> wrote: > On 11/28/2013 11:40 AM, Jeremy Fuller wrote: >> Since we appear to be entering the realm of voting game theory, +1 to dropping options where consensus has previously proven to be unobtainable. These options have had their moment, time to focus on something else. > > The WG has never voted on these alternatives; what failed was an attempt > at finding consensus. > > Furhtermore, the choice of voting method that the chairs are still > advocating (IRV) is one where presence of non-selected alternatives on > the slate can influence the outcome. Without taking a position on which system we should use, I would note that this is also true of Condorcet. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Condorcet_method#Evaluation_by_criteria -Ekr > I'm not enough of a game theorist to figure out which way the presence > of the previously non-consensual options may influence the ballot, but I > don't think I am in agreement with dropping these alternatives from the > ballot. > > (I still haven't decided whether or not I'm in agreement with doing a > ballot at all, though.) > >> >> "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results" >> >> Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2013 12:20:25 +0200 >> From: Leon Geyser <lgeyser@gmail.com> >> To: "rtcweb@ietf.org" <rtcweb@ietf.org> >> Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Video codec selection: Dropping options >> Message-ID: >> <CAGgHUiQLXSzU+AvCcvDa383DA=OGd9-NTedfFOAVGt+OmyKwwg@mail.gmail.com> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" >> >> I also agree on this. >> >> Also 5 does not mean anything. >> I don't like my own option of 8 that much, because 10 is much better :) >> 11 and 13 are scary options. >> If 12 is possible it would be a great option. Do most patents only apply for encoding? >> >> I am a bit confused about option 15. How does that one work? >> Let's say I have a two sides: H.264 encoding/decoding + Theora decoder and the other side has VP8 encoding/decoding + Theora decoder. How do they communicate? >> >> >> On 28 November 2013 10:22, <Markus.Isomaki@nokia.com> wrote: >> >>> Hi, >>> >>> I'm not much in favor of the voting, but if we do it: >>> >>> Based on the consensus call we already held in Vancouver, I would >>> propose to drop from the list in [1] any options that make exclusively >>> VP8 mandatory to implement or exclusively H.264 mandatory to >>> implement. I think we have already established that much, and >>> including those options in any vote seems wrong. >>> >>> In practice I'm talking about these four options: >>> 1. All entities MUST support H.264 >>> 2. All entities MUST support VP8 >>> 3. All entities MUST support both H.264 and VP8 4. Browsers MUST >>> support both H.264 and VP8, other entities MUST support at least one >>> of H.264 and VP8 >>> >>> What the WG should focus on is to see if there is a consensus on any >>> of the so called "fallback" options vs. no MTI. I think these are all >>> valid as such as a "fallback": >>> >>> 5. All entities MUST support at least one of H.264 and VP8 6. All >>> entities MUST support H.261 7. There is no MTI video codec 8. 5+6, >>> i.e. All entities MUST support H.261 and all entities MUST support at >>> least one of H.264 and VP8 9. All entities MUST support Theora 10. All >>> entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.261} 11. All >>> entities MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264, H.263} 12. All >>> entities MUST support decoding using both H.264 and VP8, and MUST >>> support encoding using at least one of H.264 or VP8 13. All entities >>> MUST support H.263 14. All entities MUST implement at least two of >>> {VP8, H.264 CBP, Theora} 15. All entities MUST support decoding using >>> Theora. >>> >>> I think it would be problematic even if one of options 1-4 came out as >>> a winner from a voting procedure, since it would force a large part of >>> the community to implement something they have valid reasons to avoid. >>> Some of the options 5-15 may have issues as well, but at least a >>> consensus call among them would still be in order, since we haven't really had it so far. >>> And presumably the issues and polarization are "smaller" than with the >>> VP8 vs. H.264 argument. >>> >>> Regards, >>> Markus >>> >>> [1] http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/rtcweb/trac/wiki/WikiStart >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> rtcweb mailing list >>> rtcweb@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> rtcweb mailing list >> rtcweb@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb > > > -- > Surveillance is pervasive. Go Dark. > > _______________________________________________ > rtcweb mailing list > rtcweb@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb
- Re: [rtcweb] Video codec selection: Dropping opti… Jeremy Fuller
- [rtcweb] Video codec selection: Dropping options Markus.Isomaki
- Re: [rtcweb] Video codec selection: Dropping opti… Leon Geyser
- Re: [rtcweb] Video codec selection: Dropping opti… Magnus Westerlund
- Re: [rtcweb] Video codec selection: Dropping opti… cowwoc
- Re: [rtcweb] Video codec selection: Dropping opti… Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [rtcweb] Video codec selection: Dropping opti… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [rtcweb] Video codec selection: Dropping opti… Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [rtcweb] Video codec selection: Dropping opti… Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [rtcweb] Video codec selection: Dropping opti… Markus.Isomaki