Re: [rtcweb] External Review Team

David Singer <singer@apple.com> Sun, 10 November 2013 05:37 UTC

Return-Path: <singer@apple.com>
X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 13C7621E80FD for <rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com>; Sat, 9 Nov 2013 21:37:18 -0800 (PST)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -6.599
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4]
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id oaO5pbcX9+rt for <rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com>; Sat, 9 Nov 2013 21:37:07 -0800 (PST)
Received: from mail-in1.asia.apple.com (mail-out.asia.apple.com [17.82.254.63]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7286121E80E8 for <rtcweb@ietf.org>; Sat, 9 Nov 2013 21:37:05 -0800 (PST)
Received: from relay1.asia.apple.com ( [17.82.200.18]) by mail-in1.asia.apple.com (Apple Singapore Mail Gateway) with SMTP id 33.1D.21841.F7B1F725; Sun, 10 Nov 2013 13:37:03 +0800 (MYT)
X-AuditID: 1152fe11-b7f256d000005551-d3-527f1b7f1b11
Received: from sng-mmpp-sz01.asia.apple.com ( [17.82.200.58]) (using TLS with cipher RC4-MD5 (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by relay1.asia.apple.com (Apple Singapore relay) with SMTP id 2A.D7.14371.F7B1F725; Sun, 10 Nov 2013 13:37:03 +0800 (MYT)
Received: from [17.85.193.3] (unknown [17.85.193.3]) by sng-mmpp-sz01.asia.apple.com (Oracle Communications Messaging Server 7u4-27.01(7.0.4.27.0) 64bit (built Aug 30 2012)) with ESMTPSA id <0MW100J7A8XQRM20@sng-mmpp-sz01.asia.apple.com> for rtcweb@ietf.org; Sun, 10 Nov 2013 13:37:03 +0800 (SGT)
Content-type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
MIME-version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 6.6 \(1510\))
From: David Singer <singer@apple.com>
In-reply-to: <BLU169-W133A02FF94CE62595F7D46D93F20@phx.gbl>
Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2013 13:37:01 +0800
Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable
Message-id: <54B43669-B84A-4B60-BFBB-2D2ECF91D27D@apple.com>
References: <BLU169-W133A02FF94CE62595F7D46D93F20@phx.gbl>
To: Bernard Aboba <bernard_aboba@hotmail.com>
X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1510)
X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFrrELMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUiGHRCSLdeuj7IYNZ2S4u1/9rZHRg9liz5 yRTAGMVlk5Kak1mWWqRvl8CVsW7ePPaCO1wVbya2sjYwnuHoYuTkkBAwkTg5ZwEjhC0mceHe erYuRi4OIYHdjBI/X61hgik69PkAK0RiMpPE3a7TzBDOBiaJG/8egVUxC+hI9H7/xgxi8wro Sezcu40VxBYW0JJ4e7kXLM4moCrxYM4xsHWcAtYSV3sPsoHYLEDxhlMbWSDmqEssndzABmFr Szx5d4EVYqaNROO5A2C9QgJWEl/P/QKaycEhIqAr8bfLCOJQWYnT556zgNwmIfCRVWL73fPs ExiFZyE5bxaS82YhWbGAkXkVo3huYmaObmaeoV5icWaiXmJBQU6qXnJ+7iZGcEj/E9zBOHWh 4SFGAQ5GJR7ebddqg4RYE8uKK3MPMUpwMCuJ8M79WBckxJuSWFmVWpQfX1Sak1p8iFGag0VJ nFc0BahaID2xJDU7NbUgtQgmy8TBKdXAGPi119cnrPJ1/ZLuwuIJNu+Tn+w7vTSGO6NQYumj l/uN7yZ3srO94u/hdJO3fFzIsz0ob2L5gYj2Dqsovm2rLd/P2PKiZue9rUdYda1dDNW5Fjvx fWh5KDT/9TMT2/Rfkn1evTtD2BMr2P5NMvyWta8hwyg5/Wy3Jc9hW+v+0trvKdNPtOcrsRRn JBpqMRcVJwIAPru9MGUCAAA=
X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFlrFLMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUiGHTCSrdeuj7IYMkRM4u1/9rZHRg9liz5 yRTAGMVlk5Kak1mWWqRvl8CVsW7ePPaCO1wVbya2sjYwnuHoYuTkkBAwkTj0+QArhC0mceHe erYuRi4OIYHJTBJ3u04zQzgbmCRu/HvEBFLFLKAj0fv9GzOIzSugJ7Fz7zawbmEBLYm3l3vB 4mwCqhIP5hxjBLE5BawlrvYeZAOxWYDiDac2skDMUZdYOrmBDcLWlnjy7gIrxEwbicZzB8B6 hQSsJL6e+wU0k4NDREBX4m+XEcShshKnzz1nmcAoMAvJRbOQXDQLydQFjMyrGEWLUnMSKw31 EoszE/USCwpyUvWS83M3MUJCUGgH48f9BocYBTgYlXh4C47XBAmxJpYVV+YeYpTgYFYS4Z37 sS5IiDclsbIqtSg/vqg0J7X4EKM0B4uSOG9KSm2QkEB6YklqdmpqQWoRTJaJg1OqgbFmadnX B8190Ynelwpmsend2SJ4JN/aNvPMFvfQNr225TO51x6W1nvrO2leyJyUdHUu9ZTQKEa5xZVT VROFPbot/v/Z/iCq3/az54Vztyz0NBl8i/fm/tvbG+dyJXCz2KdnyyKDmKPPdju63/Zynvj+ Omvk7V4Oq3mvmkqdV8S4nJaqWfQ3SYmlOCPRUIu5qDgRAA2DS4I9AgAA
Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" <rtcweb@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [rtcweb] External Review Team
X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12
Precedence: list
List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list <rtcweb.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/rtcweb>, <mailto:rtcweb-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb>
List-Post: <mailto:rtcweb@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:rtcweb-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb>, <mailto:rtcweb-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2013 05:37:18 -0000

On Nov 9, 2013, at 2:19 , Bernard Aboba <bernard_aboba@hotmail.com> wrote:

> Adam Roach stated:
> "I'll make an even stronger statement: I would contend that any strong push against the use of an external review team amounts to a tacit admission by an individual that the arguments for their preferred position are insufficiently compelling."
>  
> [BA] If the core issues under consideration were technical, I'd agree with you. 
> Unfortunately, they aren't.  The core issue (as Jonathan ably stated) is the perceived legal risk.  Convening an external review team of IETF participants to evaluate those legal risks is unlikely to persuade the real audience for those recommendations - lawyers. 
>  
> If the goal is to come up with a compelling legal analysis, the expert panel should probably be composed of recognized legal experts.  Good luck with recruiting such a panel to work pro-bono. 



Yes.

Indeed, I am having a hard time seeing how the IETF could, with a straight face, mandate implementation of something for which they have a formal "no license" declaration.  In other bodies I know of, this would be impossible: the technical committee would be required to re-consider the specification and take appropriate action.



David Singer
Multimedia and Software Standards, Apple Inc.