Re: [rtcweb] Request to postpone the question on VP8 as MTI

Cameron Byrne <> Sun, 10 March 2013 18:57 UTC

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Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2013 11:57:35 -0700
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From: Cameron Byrne <>
To: Cullen Jennings <>
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Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Request to postpone the question on VP8 as MTI
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After seeing this play out over the last few months,  i believe we
need to strongly consider no MTI for video.

It's unfortunate, but i believe the various stakeholder have
irreconcilable difference.  IPR is a dark art and the IETF has no
method for dealing with it beyond running away.  That said, run away.


On Sun, Mar 10, 2013 at 8:52 AM, Cullen Jennings <> wrote:
> Gaelle,
> I think these are good points and other have erased similar points. I need to discuss it with my co-chairs but I suspect that for the points you raised, we will need delay this to IETF 86. Again, I need to talk to my co-chairs before we can make a decision on this but I would guess that is the direction things will need to go.
> Cullen (One of the co-chairs)
> On Mar 10, 2013, at 9:45 AM, Gaelle Martin-Cocher <> wrote:
>> Dear All,
>> In light of the recent announcements (both MPEG-LA and the VP8 litigation), I believe that more time is needed to make a proper risk assessment on VP8 and an informed decision. On one side the MPEG-LA announcement provides some relief but also confirms that VP8 does not come for free and that concerns were/are justified. This is further confirmed by the second announcement.
>> It will take more efforts for VP8 supporters (and Google does not need to be alone in that process) to reach the goal of an RF video codec (or a codec with a suitable licensing terms). I think it is understood by now, that this would likely be more prone to success in a standardization body than anywhere else . (speaking here as a WebVC proponent that went through that process too).
>> It is also apparent that the MPEG-LA/Google agreement raises additional questions.
>> Here are the reasons I believe we need more time and should postpone the question on VP8 (I am not saying that this should not be asked at a later time):
>> -The license is not yet published (and the meeting starts tomorrow)
>> -Some negotiations are still ongoing (e.g. names of the licensors).
>> -Some questions were/are raised and not answered yet, below are the one that matters to me:
>> - Will the patent list be provided?
>> - Who are the licensors  and how that group of licensors relates to the initial 12 patent holders identified by MPEG-LA?
>> - Will there be alignment of licenses across WebM, RFC, MPEG, and is that even feasible with the possible new license terms?
>> - Questions related to clarifications of the different grants inside/outside the RFC and their applicability to the RFC itself still need to be answered (aka: how  section 20: 27 apply to the RFC code itself or to the code provided in MPEG)
>> - Questions related to the status of VP8 as a standard as it was mentioned that the RFC will not progress to the standard track still remain
>> - In light of the litigation announcement, was due diligence done by VP8 proponents toward patent holders that are not MPEG-LA members?  (e.g. possibly on a model similar to what was done in WebVC)
>> - More questions will likely be raised once the license is published.
>> -We need to give enough time to Google to finalize its license and provide answers on those above points.
>> -VP8 is not (yet) a standard in IETF nor in MPEG (MPEG only saw an input contribution for the first time in January). It would be desirable that RTCWeb points to a standard or that VP8 reaches a certain stage in MPEG so that it can be considered as an MPEG deliverable. VP8 may reach that status at a next MPEG meeting in April or July, I don’t see how that can be accelerated further. We need to give MPEG the time to proceed properly.
>> -legal entities will need time to review both the new license and the answers to the various questions that were asked. This cannot be achieved in 3 days.
>> Further, I just came across an informational RFC for VP9:
>> -Is VP9 going to “deprecate” VP8?
>> - What is the timeframe for VP9 in IETF?
>> -if VP9 going to be proposed for a next generation of RTCWeb Client? Which timeframe?
>> I don’t think it would be desirable to mandate VP8 today if VP9 is around the corner and will be proposed for RTCWeb as well.
>> Requesting two codecs to be implemented instead of one in a short timeframe is obviously an issue for implementers that cannot do a simple software upgrade of their products.
>> I hope all of you will find that request reasonable.
>> Sincerely,
>> Gaëlle Martin-Cocher
>> Standards Manager
>> Office: (905) 629-4746 x14591
>> BlackBerry: (647) 267-0569
>> PIN: 2835485E
>> <image001.gif>
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