Re: [secdir] Secdir review of draft-ietf-p2psip-rpr-11

"Klaas Wierenga (kwiereng)" <> Mon, 03 February 2014 13:46 UTC

Return-Path: <>
Received: from localhost ( []) by (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3013D1A021D; Mon, 3 Feb 2014 05:46:56 -0800 (PST)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -15.036
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-15.036 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.535, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham
Received: from ([]) by localhost ( []) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hvkkOVwHjEEg; Mon, 3 Feb 2014 05:46:48 -0800 (PST)
Received: from ( []) by (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A8D91ADEB5; Mon, 3 Feb 2014 05:32:41 -0800 (PST)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple;;; l=4224; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1391434361; x=1392643961; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:references: in-reply-to:content-id:content-transfer-encoding: mime-version; bh=4Txnc/D/I4HPHX5ZuCnYMaeLhNQxD+igAa2C7vSIruQ=; b=PZt5+C3mJMv79kprmqUfjRZ/daF5eoEuEOXE4zc+/lkQrgu8xShhMliw 2YmwFpYWEAo47w2DUXlK5Gflxg3iX2FATxERFQLV5iTsbjdSaaG6remvb ELBi9HKuxOY/M66sEoe5SrSG1IAEqu6Z9wF740V5qrwbd/0s7XL+FOCnP U=;
X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true
X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.95,772,1384300800"; d="scan'208";a="301450472"
Received: from ([]) by with ESMTP; 03 Feb 2014 13:32:40 +0000
Received: from ( []) by (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s13DWeBr017018 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL); Mon, 3 Feb 2014 13:32:40 GMT
Received: from ([]) by ([]) with mapi id 14.03.0123.003; Mon, 3 Feb 2014 07:32:39 -0600
From: "Klaas Wierenga (kwiereng)" <>
To: Roni Even <>
Thread-Topic: Secdir review of draft-ietf-p2psip-rpr-11
Thread-Index: AQHPHZxuadjFPudg1EiEZvef0HUYVpqjhjwQgABr8IA=
Date: Mon, 03 Feb 2014 13:32:39 +0000
Message-ID: <>
References: <> <>
In-Reply-To: <>
Accept-Language: en-US
Content-Language: en-US
x-originating-ip: []
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-ID: <>
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
MIME-Version: 1.0
Cc: "" <>, "" <>, "" <>, "" <>
Subject: Re: [secdir] Secdir review of draft-ietf-p2psip-rpr-11
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15
Precedence: list
List-Id: Security Area Directorate <>
List-Unsubscribe: <>, <>
List-Archive: <>
List-Post: <>
List-Help: <>
List-Subscribe: <>, <>
X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 03 Feb 2014 13:46:56 -0000

On Feb 3, 2014, at 2:06 PM, Roni Even <> wrote:

Hi Roni,

> Thanks for the comments.
> In order to use a relay, the peer need to learn who is the relevant relay as
> described in section 3.1 and 3.2 so they are not arbitrary peers,
> furthermore section 4.1 says that a relay can limit the number of
> connections.

So what happens if a relay has reached that maximum? Doesn't that mean that the relay has become effectively unusable? But since my SPOF comment doesn't seem to hold this is not much of an issue.

> The relay is used for the response path. The source establish a connection
> to a relay known to him and if succeed send the information in the outgoing
> message. The response should come from the target peer.
> So the general security in RFC6490 will work. The relay is not a point of
> failure since this is an optional mechanism and if the communication fails
> the routing will fall back to SRR.

ah ok, the sentence "If peer A knows it is behind a NAT or NATs, and knows one or more
   relay peers with whom they have a prior connections, peer A can try
   RPR. " in 3.1 threw me off. I missed that there was in any case an established connection from A to B. So if I now understand correctly, you are dealing with a case in which SRR is in any case also always possible? 

> We can add some sentence in the security section about the relay limiting
> the number of connections and maybe about verifying that the connection
> request for the response is from the destination peer in the outgoing
> message if the relay will keep state (not recommended)

I think that is useful

> As for being trusted, I think you are right, the relay need to comply with
> the security specifications in RFC6490.


> BTW: Sorry for not responding earlier bur this was probably since the email
> sent to so it did not reach us.

arghhh, I need to say sorry here, I clearly was a bit too hasty with my copy/paste of the draft name!


> Roni Even
> ________________________________________
> From: Klaas Wierenga (kwiereng) []
> Sent: Thursday, January 30, 2014 11:19 AM
> To:
> Cc:;
> Subject: Secdir review of draft-ietf-p2psip-rpr-11
> Hi,
> I reviewed earlier version 10 (, I didn't get any response and the security considerations don't seem to address what I wrote at that time, so I'll repeat:
> --
> Hi,
> I have reviewed this document as part of the security directorate's ongoing effort to review all IETF documents being processed by the IESG.  These comments were written primarily for the benefit of the security area directors.  Document editors and WG chairs should treat these comments just like any other last call comments.
> This document defines an optional extension to RELOAD to support Relay Peer Routing (RPR) mode (as opposed to Symmetric Recursive Routing (SRR). The document is straightforward and clear, but with respect to the security considerations a few comments:
> - I am surprised that there is no discussion on the relay peer being the single (or few) point of failure,  and thus becoming an interesting target for DoS attacks: the relay peer acts as a hub for all traffic coming from the peers that have it as their relay. Especially when there is a limited number of relays it becomes attractive to bring the relay down.
> - The other thing I wonder about is why there is the need to trust the relay, why is this different from the DRR case (apart from the observation in my previous comment)? It seems that the system would work just fine without the explicit trust in the relay peer, in fact, the way I understand it every peer in the overlay can in principle act as a relay peer (I imagine a scenario where the relay peer acts as the "established connection").
> Cheers,
> Klaas Wierenga
> --