Re: List of open issues with Sieve reject draft
Matthew Elvey <matthew@elvey.com> Sun, 29 October 2006 07:28 UTC
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Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2006 00:28:09 -0700
From: Matthew Elvey <matthew@elvey.com>
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To: ietf-mta-filters@imc.org
Subject: Re: List of open issues with Sieve reject draft
References: <44B1353C.7050002@isode.com> <1152534353.29301.6.camel@mattugur.ifi.uio.no> <44B8F8D9.1000008@isode.com> <1153142487.5123.40.camel@localhost> <f0380f72f057134b9d7dd01439c85a3e@sun.com> <454441DA.2050804@elvey.com>
In-Reply-To: <454441DA.2050804@elvey.com>
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Oops; didn't mean to cc the whole list with that last post. Sorry, folks. Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k9T7SHPA088160; Sun, 29 Oct 2006 00:28:17 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k9T7SHkf088158; Sun, 29 Oct 2006 00:28:17 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from out1.smtp.messagingengine.com (out1.smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.25]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k9T7SFnP088146 for <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org>; Sun, 29 Oct 2006 00:28:16 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from matthew@elvey.com) Received: from db2.internal (db2.internal [10.202.2.12]) by frontend1.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED0E4DBF761 for <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org>; Sun, 29 Oct 2006 02:28:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from heartbeat2.messagingengine.com ([10.202.2.161]) by db2.internal (MEProxy); Sun, 29 Oct 2006 02:28:16 -0500 X-Sasl-enc: CR7+QPkIeB8+jD8j00ZGrguyJkgdzrSOX51FILTkSFI/ 1162106896 Received: from [192.168.18.142] (69-12-142-138.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net [69.12.142.138]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 33FE2129DF; Sun, 29 Oct 2006 02:28:15 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <45445809.2080105@elvey.com> Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2006 00:28:09 -0700 From: Matthew Elvey <matthew@elvey.com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.7 (Macintosh/20060909) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ietf-mta-filters@imc.org Subject: Re: List of open issues with Sieve reject draft References: <44B1353C.7050002@isode.com> <1152534353.29301.6.camel@mattugur.ifi.uio.no> <44B8F8D9.1000008@isode.com> <1153142487.5123.40.camel@localhost> <f0380f72f057134b9d7dd01439c85a3e@sun.com> <454441DA.2050804@elvey.com> In-Reply-To: <454441DA.2050804@elvey.com> X-Habeas-SWE-1: winter into spring X-Habeas-SWE-2: brightly anticipated X-Habeas-SWE-3: like Habeas SWE (tm) X-Habeas-SWE-4: Copyright 2002 Habeas (tm) X-Habeas-SWE-5: Sender Warranted Email (SWE) (tm). The sender of this X-Habeas-SWE-6: email in exchange for a license for this Habeas X-Habeas-SWE-7: warrant mark warrants that this is a Habeas Compliant X-Habeas-SWE-8: Message (HCM) and not spam. Please report use of this X-Habeas-SWE-9: mark in spam to <http://www.habeas.com/report/>. Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-mta-filters/mail-archive/> List-ID: <ietf-mta-filters.imc.org> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-mta-filters-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> Oops; didn't mean to cc the whole list with that last post. Sorry, folks. Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k9T5rbDD061826; Sat, 28 Oct 2006 22:53:37 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k9T5rbLj061825; Sat, 28 Oct 2006 22:53:37 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from out1.smtp.messagingengine.com (out1.smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.25]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k9T5rZmS061804 for <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org>; Sat, 28 Oct 2006 22:53:35 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from matthew@elvey.com) Received: from db2.internal (db2.internal [10.202.2.12]) by frontend1.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A9E0DBF6EB; Sun, 29 Oct 2006 01:53:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from heartbeat1.messagingengine.com ([10.202.2.160]) by db2.internal (MEProxy); Sun, 29 Oct 2006 01:53:36 -0400 X-Sasl-enc: FKoMvUS/dMkNhAgA+FrR/1ygXJxDvLSkjJQaa0r0s0TH 1162101215 Received: from [192.168.18.142] (69-12-142-138.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net [69.12.142.138]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 93E1B14D15; Sun, 29 Oct 2006 01:53:33 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <454441DA.2050804@elvey.com> Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2006 22:53:30 -0700 From: Matthew Elvey <matthew@elvey.com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.7 (Macintosh/20060909) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Kristin Hubner <kristin.hubner@sun.com> CC: Randall Gellens <Randy@Qualcomm.Com>, Alexey Melnikov <alexey.melnikov@isode.com>, ietf-mta-filters@imc.org Subject: Re: List of open issues with Sieve reject draft References: <44B1353C.7050002@isode.com> <1152534353.29301.6.camel@mattugur.ifi.uio.no> <44B8F8D9.1000008@isode.com> <1153142487.5123.40.camel@localhost> <f0380f72f057134b9d7dd01439c85a3e@sun.com> In-Reply-To: <f0380f72f057134b9d7dd01439c85a3e@sun.com> X-Habeas-SWE-1: winter into spring X-Habeas-SWE-2: brightly anticipated X-Habeas-SWE-3: like Habeas SWE (tm) X-Habeas-SWE-4: Copyright 2002 Habeas (tm) X-Habeas-SWE-5: Sender Warranted Email (SWE) (tm). The sender of this X-Habeas-SWE-6: email in exchange for a license for this Habeas X-Habeas-SWE-7: warrant mark warrants that this is a Habeas Compliant X-Habeas-SWE-8: Message (HCM) and not spam. Please report use of this X-Habeas-SWE-9: mark in spam to <http://www.habeas.com/report/>. Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------090206060205070600020508" Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-mta-filters/mail-archive/> List-ID: <ietf-mta-filters.imc.org> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-mta-filters-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------090206060205070600020508 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 7/18/06 1:36 PM, and at other times, Kristin Hubner wrote extensively about 1l8n, and pushed for :exacttext or something like it. Kristin, will you be at IETF 67? Alexey and Randall Gellens (and I, if I attend), will be getting together to discuss :exacttext. (See attached email (which I trust they don't mind me sharing) for discussion points.) I'm thinking it would be good if you could attend. My own view was last expressed: "The /i18n/ solution is complex, but it does seem to be the simplest solution given the constraints." As much as I hate permitting MDNs and DSNs, I have a hard time imagining telling a Chinese, say, that he can't communicate in his own language, and not feeling ridiculous. I do wonder if punycode couldn't be an alternative. I am really loathe to allow any unnecessary blowback. (Incidentally, I personally have been receiving huge amounts of blowback over the past month or so.) --------------090206060205070600020508 Content-Type: message/rfc822; name="Attached Message" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="Attached Message" Received: from mx2.internal (mx2.internal [10.202.2.201]) by imap5m.internal (Cyrus v2.3.7-fmsvn8913) with LMTPA; Wed, 02 Aug 2006 14:56:14 -0400 X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.3 X-Spam-score: 0.0 X-Delivered-to: matthew@elvey.com Received: from numenor.qualcomm.com (numenor.qualcomm.com [129.46.51.58]) by mx2.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E29159DF92 for <matthew@elvey.com>; Wed, 2 Aug 2006 14:56:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from neophyte.qualcomm.com (neophyte.qualcomm.com [129.46.61.149]) by numenor.qualcomm.com (8.13.6/8.12.5/1.0) with ESMTP id k72Iu7bm026962 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 2 Aug 2006 11:56:07 -0700 Received: from [129.46.172.15] (loud.qualcomm.com [129.46.172.15]) by neophyte.qualcomm.com (8.13.6/8.13.6/1.0) with ESMTP id k72Iu3QM011598; Wed, 2 Aug 2006 11:56:05 -0700 (PDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <p06300000c0f6a422bc03@[129.46.172.15]> In-Reply-To: <44D078C4.1090708@isode.com> References: <p0630000dc0f5b3b5579e@[129.46.172.15]> <44D078C4.1090708@isode.com> X-Mailer: Eudora for Mac OS X (dev alpha) X-message-flag: Warning: Outlook in use. Upgrade to Eudora: <http://www.eudora.com> Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2006 11:56:01 -0700 To: Alexey Melnikov <alexey.melnikov@isode.com>, Randall Gellens <randy@qualcomm.com> From: Randall Gellens <randy@qualcomm.com> Subject: Re: Review of draft-ietf-sieve-refuse-reject-03 Cc: Matthew Elvey <matthew@elvey.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-Random-Sig-Tag: 1.0b28 At 11:04 AM +0100 8/2/06, Alexey Melnikov wrote: > Randall Gellens wrote: > >> My comments on -02 apply to -03, with one extra: >> >> Is the exacttext option worth it? It seems to be adding a lot of >> complexity for fairly small gain. I understand users wanting to >> put reject reasons in their native language. However, the intent >> of this draft is that reject will operate at the SMTP level >> wherever possible. Hence, the reject reason should be very short >> and must be usable in an SMTP response. Use of ASCII is best for >> interoperability. Use of UTF-8 will only work when EAI extensions >> are also being used, or when MDNs are being generated instead of >> SMTP protocol responses. Since EAI is new, I don't think we want >> to rely on it. > > This was discussed a lot on the mailing list. I thought we almost > came to an agreement of not having this option. But then Kristine > Hubner sent the following message: > > <http://www.imc.org/ietf-mta-filters/mail-archive/msg03079.html> > > and I think the message has a point. To me, the message argues that some mechanism is needed to reject non-spam messages. Such a mechanism needs UTF-8 and therefore shouldn't be at the SMTP level. This argues for a command that generates an MDN. I'd be fine with that. But this draft is targeted at rejections where doing it at the SMTP level is far more important than delivering a nice reject reason. That argues that only short ASCII strings be permitted. > So I added the option. > But note, it is controlled by another capability. If EAI (or > whatever) enables UTF-8 response text in SMTP, this extension would > just go away. That is asking for interoperability problems at least until EAI is widely deployed. > >> And the intent is to get away from MDNs. Hence, we should >> encourage brevity and mandate ASCII. > >> Once EAI extensions are deployed we can extend reject to permit UTF-8. > > EAI is not required by the draft, the text is inentionally vague to > allow anything :-). > > Unfortunately we can't just require reject reason string to be in > ASCII, people want to use UTF-8. Of course people want UTF-8, but the question is why and when. In other words, which is more important: delivering nice rejection reasons, or doing SMTP-level rejections? If the nice reasons are more important, drop this draft and stick to MDNs. If SMTP-level is more important, require short ASCII strings. If both are needed then introduce a new command that always does MDNs, or change this draft to use a new command that always does SMTP with a fall-back to DSN. -- Randall Gellens Opinions are personal; facts are suspect; I speak for myself only -------------- Randomly-selected tag: --------------- As soon as we started programming, we found to our surprise that it wasn't as easy to get programs right as we had thought. Debugging had to be discovered. I can remember the exact instant when I realized that a large part of my life from then on was going to be spent in finding mistakes in my own programs. --Maurice Wilkes discovers debugging, 1949 (courtesy of Paul Robinson) --------------090206060205070600020508-- Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k9QHBPrK066318; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 10:11:25 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k9QHBPJt066317; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 10:11:25 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rufus.isode.com (rufus.isode.com [62.3.217.251]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k9QHBMoK066298 for <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org>; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 10:11:24 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from alexey.melnikov@isode.com) Received: from [172.16.1.99] (shiny.isode.com [62.3.217.250]) by rufus.isode.com (submission channel) via TCP with ESMTPA id <RUDsNQAyIR5Y@rufus.isode.com>; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 18:11:17 +0100 Message-ID: <4540EBE9.5070907@isode.com> Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2006 18:10:01 +0100 From: Alexey Melnikov <alexey.melnikov@isode.com> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050915 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en To: ietf-mta-filters@imc.org Subject: Re: Tentative WG meeting agenda for San Diego References: <4540C617.40904@isode.com> In-Reply-To: <4540C617.40904@isode.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; format="flowed" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-mta-filters/mail-archive/> List-ID: <ietf-mta-filters.imc.org> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-mta-filters-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> Alexey Melnikov wrote: > Hi folks, > Here is a tentative proposal from WG chairs: > > - Introduction (blue sheets, scribe etc) (1 min) > - Agenda Bashing (2 mins) > - Report on completed work (7 mins) > - Outstanding issues with Base spec (20 mins) > o escaping non-UTF-8 sequences > - Reject/refuse draft - draft-ietf-sieve-refuse-reject-04.txt (25 mins) > o :exacttext parameter to reject > o extension for quering runtime environment > - MIME loops draft - draft-ietf-sieve-mime-loop-01.txt (25 mins) > - Notification draft - draft-ietf-sieve-notify-04.txt (20 mins) > - Mailto Notification draft - draft-ietf-sieve-notify-mailto-01.txt > (10 mins) > - Other topics (10 mins) Speaking as a WG participant: I would like to quickly talk about draft-melnikov-sieve-imapext-metadata-00.txt, if people are interested. > Total: 120 minutes > > Any comments/changes/additions/etc.? Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k9QEap3J033837; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 07:36:51 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k9QEap15033836; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 07:36:51 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rufus.isode.com (rufus.isode.com [62.3.217.251]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k9QEaoTk033823 for <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org>; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 07:36:50 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from alexey.melnikov@isode.com) Received: from [172.16.1.99] (shiny.isode.com [62.3.217.250]) by rufus.isode.com (submission channel) via TCP with ESMTPA id <RUDIAQAyIWsQ@rufus.isode.com>; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 15:36:49 +0100 Message-ID: <4540C7BE.90700@isode.com> Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2006 15:35:42 +0100 From: Alexey Melnikov <alexey.melnikov@isode.com> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050915 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en To: MTA filtering mailing list <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org> Subject: Changes to Sieve refuse in -04 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; format="flowed" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-mta-filters/mail-archive/> List-ID: <ietf-mta-filters.imc.org> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-mta-filters-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> Revision -04 has mostly editorial changes. There is one change that requires special attention: Implementations that are running in MTA/MDAs are now prohibited from generating MDNs. If anybody think that this is a problem, please speak up now. Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k9QETp9Z032414; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 07:29:51 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k9QETpiP032413; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 07:29:51 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rufus.isode.com (rufus.isode.com [62.3.217.251]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k9QEToBU032402 for <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org>; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 07:29:51 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from alexey.melnikov@isode.com) Received: from [172.16.1.99] (shiny.isode.com [62.3.217.250]) by rufus.isode.com (submission channel) via TCP with ESMTPA id <RUDGWgAyISzo@rufus.isode.com>; Thu, 26 Oct 2006 15:29:46 +0100 Message-ID: <4540C617.40904@isode.com> Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2006 15:28:39 +0100 From: Alexey Melnikov <alexey.melnikov@isode.com> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050915 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: undisclosed-recipients:; Subject: Tentative WG meeting agenda for San Diego Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-mta-filters/mail-archive/> List-ID: <ietf-mta-filters.imc.org> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-mta-filters-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> Hi folks, Here is a tentative proposal from WG chairs: - Introduction (blue sheets, scribe etc) (1 min) - Agenda Bashing (2 mins) - Report on completed work (7 mins) - Outstanding issues with Base spec (20 mins) o escaping non-UTF-8 sequences - Reject/refuse draft - draft-ietf-sieve-refuse-reject-04.txt (25 mins) o :exacttext parameter to reject o extension for quering runtime environment - MIME loops draft - draft-ietf-sieve-mime-loop-01.txt (25 mins) - Notification draft - draft-ietf-sieve-notify-04.txt (20 mins) - Mailto Notification draft - draft-ietf-sieve-notify-mailto-01.txt (10 mins) - Other topics (10 mins) * * Total: 120 minutes Any comments/changes/additions/etc.? Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k9OJoA05011544; Tue, 24 Oct 2006 12:50:10 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k9OJoAZc011543; Tue, 24 Oct 2006 12:50:10 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ns4.neustar.com (ns4.neustar.com [156.154.24.139]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k9OJo930011523 for <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org>; Tue, 24 Oct 2006 12:50:10 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from ietf@ietf.org) Received: from stiedprstage1.ietf.org (stiedprstage1.va.neustar.com [10.31.47.10]) by ns4.neustar.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 620712ACAE; Tue, 24 Oct 2006 19:50:02 +0000 (GMT) Received: from ietf by stiedprstage1.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1GcSHi-0001Q8-3p; Tue, 24 Oct 2006 15:50:02 -0400 Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; Boundary="NextPart" Mime-Version: 1.0 To: i-d-announce@ietf.org Cc: ietf-mta-filters@imc.org From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Subject: I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-sieve-mime-loop-01.txt Message-Id: <E1GcSHi-0001Q8-3p@stiedprstage1.ietf.org> Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2006 15:50:02 -0400 Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-mta-filters/mail-archive/> List-ID: <ietf-mta-filters.imc.org> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-mta-filters-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> --NextPart A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Sieve Mail Filtering Language Working Group of the IETF. Title : SIEVE Email Filtering: MIME part Tests, Iteration, Replacement and Enclosure Author(s) : T. Hansen, C. Daboo Filename : draft-ietf-sieve-mime-loop-01.txt Pages : 12 Date : 2006-10-24 The SIEVE email filtering language has no way to examine individual MIME parts or any way to manipulate those individual parts. However, being able to filter based on MIME content is important. This document defines extensions for these needs. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-sieve-mime-loop-01.txt To remove yourself from the I-D Announcement list, send a message to i-d-announce-request@ietf.org with the word unsubscribe in the body of the message. You can also visit https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/I-D-announce to change your subscription settings. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then "get draft-ietf-sieve-mime-loop-01.txt". A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. Send a message to: mailserv@ietf.org. In the body type: "FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-sieve-mime-loop-01.txt". NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility. To use this feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE" command. To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or a MIME-compliant mail reader. Different MIME-compliant mail readers exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on how to manipulate these messages. Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. --NextPart Content-Type: Multipart/Alternative; Boundary="OtherAccess" --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; access-type="mail-server"; server="mailserv@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2006-10-24110127.I-D@ietf.org> ENCODING mime FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-sieve-mime-loop-01.txt --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; name="draft-ietf-sieve-mime-loop-01.txt"; site="ftp.ietf.org"; access-type="anon-ftp"; directory="internet-drafts" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2006-10-24110127.I-D@ietf.org> --OtherAccess-- --NextPart-- Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k9N5UoQa050831; Sun, 22 Oct 2006 22:30:50 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k9N5UowR050830; Sun, 22 Oct 2006 22:30:50 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp-out.sendmail.com (smtp-out.sendmail.com [209.246.26.45]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k9N5UowT050822 for <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org>; Sun, 22 Oct 2006 22:30:50 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from guenther+mtafilters@sendmail.com) Received: from [10.201.0.58] (adsl-64-58-1-252.mho.net [64.58.1.252] (may be forged)) (authenticated bits=0) by foon.sendmail.com (Switch-3.2.5/Switch-3.2.0) with ESMTP id k9N5UcHR020097 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sun, 22 Oct 2006 22:30:41 -0700 X-DKIM: Sendmail DKIM Filter v0.5.1 foon.sendmail.com k9N5UcHR020097 DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/simple; d=sendmail.com; s=tls.dkim; t=1161581443; bh=9ovoytxuANP5tkAeIWcdSgPr2y8=; h=X-DomainKeys: DomainKey-Signature:Date:From:X-X-Sender:To:cc:Subject:In-Reply-To: Message-ID:References:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=n2GpTRTrNgLlCQKi T3SLMXZH+Jrh4CVEf2VPXYgZjdDh39TCKBI35CTggq8uR1Z3VuGwlNPKGBHQHHP0ol3 17TzmJw9y6NCAVfU8Nqips1nZ4geaqdl+QoMqMrstkZaWf9j2BWxyJLa/ZPtgpLdr3r /g9ud1o9l0AziOhmCYbWY= X-DomainKeys: Sendmail DomainKeys Filter v0.4.1 foon.sendmail.com k9N5UcHR020097 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; s=tls; d=sendmail.com; c=nofws; q=dns; h=date:from:x-x-sender:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:message-id: references:mime-version:content-type; b=f9Mu7EceBzBZLhKxcJ1tjUXOof7vUPe6cM5CoADzLGXNVSTFpS2uNHD4GJisEOZRH N1TM8PbbWN6fUurZe0zzD3xJIyMgCQvCYzARDsKCDOuQ1vWDnrbqzaC95yh+4JSrIia DY0GuluMhsHtcFXhV0A4bI9YhIex/gpyhcz1sBs= Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2006 23:30:38 -0600 From: Philip Guenther <guenther+mtafilters@sendmail.com> X-X-Sender: guenther@vanye.mho.net To: Kjetil Torgrim Homme <kjetilho@ifi.uio.no> cc: ietf-mta-filters@imc.org Subject: Re: Proposal for escaping on non-UTF-8 sequences in Sieve In-Reply-To: <1161461128.26871.123.camel@havhest.ifi.uio.no> Message-ID: <Pine.BSO.4.64.0610222254380.29824@vanye.mho.net> References: <450DCEB9.2030403@isode.com> <20060918145149.GA11806@nostromo.freenet-ag.de> <450EB687.7000406@isode.com> <01M7C479AQ780008CX@mauve.mrochek.com> <20060918202050.GC12279@nostromo.freenet-ag.de> <Pine.BSO.4.64.0609181509400.7779@vanye.mho.net> <1159711450.13064.77.camel@honbori.ifi.uio.no> <1160097878.27906.128.camel@mattugur.ifi.uio.no> <Pine.BSO.4.64.0610200135410.11589@vanye.mho.net> <E1GaquO-0005i2-Ny@nostromo.freenet-ag.de> <45389FB1.5070707@isode.com> <E1Gat99-0005oJ-IE@nostromo.freenet-ag.de> <00da01c6f445$1f05c370$0202fea9@nigelhome> <1161350269.26871.56.camel@havhest.ifi.uio.no> <1161461128.26871.123.camel@havhest.ifi.uio.no> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-mta-filters/mail-archive/> List-ID: <ietf-mta-filters.imc.org> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-mta-filters-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> On Sat, 21 Oct 2006, Kjetil Torgrim Homme wrote: > here's my amended 2.4.2.4, which attempts to fix it. the wording is a > bit weasely, but I think it will work in practice. if anyone can fix it > more formally in ABNF, please help out. ... + encoded-seq = "${" enc-method ":" enc-argument "}" + enc-method = "hex" / "unicode" ... + Values for enc-method or enc-argument which don't match the above + syntax SHOULD cause a syntax error. Hmm, that won't work, as there isn't a defined meaning for something to not match _part_ of a syntax. The only sensible interpretation I can see would be to match *anything* for enc-method and enc-argument, and then compare them to their expected forms. The problem, with that is that it would render this string a syntax error: "${name}: ${value}" because it's an attempt to use encoded-seq with an enc-method of "name}" and a enc-argument of " ${value". That's obviously not the desired result. To obtain the desired result, we have to give the syntax for all the sequences that should be covered by the encoded-character extension, both those that have a defined expansion and those that should be treated as a syntax error. How broad do we want to make that? The broadest would cover any sequence matching this: encoded-seq = "${" enc-method ":" enc-argument "}" enc-method = *(%x01-39 / %x3b-7c / %x7e-ff) ; zero or more characters other than ':' or '}' enc-argument = *(%x01-7c / %x7e-ff) ; zero or more characters other than '}' I.e., any sequence that starts with '${', followed by zero or more octets other than ':' and '}', followed by a ':', then zero or more octets other than '}', then finally a '}', would be considered a use of the encoded-seq syntax. To put it another way, if you find a '${', and there's at least one colon between that and the next '}', it's an encoded-seq. That would leave "${name}: ${value}" with its expected value, but make this: "${name: sdlkfjs}" or this: "${a.44:}" a syntax error. On the other hand, this: "${hex.ff}" would _not_ be a syntax error, because it doesn't contain a colon between the braces. That's correct, of course, because we _want_ it to be a variable reference instead. The above is the broadest syntax as makes sense. We could tighten it up and only cover sequences where the enc-method is, say, alphanumeric. If we did that, then this: "${a.44:}" would not be a syntax error. Opinions? Philip Guenther Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k9LK5cXk017580; Sat, 21 Oct 2006 13:05:38 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k9LK5coO017579; Sat, 21 Oct 2006 13:05:38 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from pat.uio.no (IDENT:7411@pat.uio.no [129.240.10.4]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k9LK5a0e017573 for <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org>; Sat, 21 Oct 2006 13:05:37 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from kjetilho@ifi.uio.no) Received: from mail-mx5.uio.no ([129.240.10.46]) by pat.uio.no with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GbN64-0005gM-5A for ietf-mta-filters@imc.org; Sat, 21 Oct 2006 22:05:32 +0200 Received: from havhest.ifi.uio.no ([129.240.68.231]) by mail-mx5.uio.no with esmtpsa (TLSv1:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 4.43) id 1GbN61-0001Yf-Dn for ietf-mta-filters@imc.org; Sat, 21 Oct 2006 22:05:29 +0200 Subject: Re: Proposal for escaping on non-UTF-8 sequences in Sieve From: Kjetil Torgrim Homme <kjetilho@ifi.uio.no> To: ietf-mta-filters@imc.org In-Reply-To: <1161350269.26871.56.camel@havhest.ifi.uio.no> References: <450DCEB9.2030403@isode.com> <20060918145149.GA11806@nostromo.freenet-ag.de> <450EB687.7000406@isode.com> <01M7C479AQ780008CX@mauve.mrochek.com> <20060918202050.GC12279@nostromo.freenet-ag.de> <Pine.BSO.4.64.0609181509400.7779@vanye.mho.net> <1159711450.13064.77.camel@honbori.ifi.uio.no> <1160097878.27906.128.camel@mattugur.ifi.uio.no> <Pine.BSO.4.64.0610200135410.11589@vanye.mho.net> <E1GaquO-0005i2-Ny@nostromo.freenet-ag.de> <45389FB1.5070707@isode.com> <E1Gat99-0005oJ-IE@nostromo.freenet-ag.de> <00da01c6f445$1f05c370$0202fea9@nigelhome> <1161350269.26871.56.camel@havhest.ifi.uio.no> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=-bshwpV56rNS3vYZbVhLk" Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2006 22:05:28 +0200 Message-Id: <1161461128.26871.123.camel@havhest.ifi.uio.no> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.0 X-UiO-Spam-info: not spam, SpamAssassin (score=-4.788, required 12, autolearn=disabled, AWL 0.21, UIO_MAIL_IS_INTERNAL -5.00) Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-mta-filters/mail-archive/> List-ID: <ietf-mta-filters.imc.org> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-mta-filters-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> --=-bshwpV56rNS3vYZbVhLk Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > oh. I just realised my suggestion has the same shortcoming as the > variables syntax: it won't raise syntax errors, since it only matches > well-formed character sequences. here's my amended 2.4.2.4, which attempts to fix it. the wording is a bit weasely, but I think it will work in practice. if anyone can fix it more formally in ABNF, please help out. I hope it addresses the issues brought up (6 digit Unicode, single pass, NUL, extension name). thanks for the feedback, everyone! -- Kjetil T. --=-bshwpV56rNS3vYZbVhLk Content-Description: Content-Disposition: inline; filename=encoded-character.patch Content-Type: text/x-patch; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --- draft-ietf-sieve-3028bis-09.txt 2006-10-06 01:47:33.989869000 +0200 +++ draft-ietf-sieve-3028bis-kjetilho.txt 2006-10-21 21:52:27.461172000 +0200 @@ -393,6 +393,10 @@ invalid data and in arguments containing raw MIME parts for extension actions that generate outgoing messages. + The extension "encoded-character" may be used to encode arbitrary + characters as a sequence of US-ASCII characters (see 2.4.2.4 for + details). + For entering larger amounts of text, such as an email message, a multi-line form is allowed. It starts with the keyword "text:", followed by a CRLF, and ends with the sequence of a CRLF, a single @@ -470,6 +474,46 @@ valid, but need not ensure that they actually identify an email recipient. +2.4.2.4. Encoding characters using "encoded-character" + + When the "encoded-character" extension is in effect, character + sequences in strings which match the encoded-seq syntax are + replaced by the decoded value. This matching happens after escape + sequences are interpreted and dot-unstuffing has been done. A + single pass is done. + + encoded-seq = "${" enc-method ":" enc-argument "}" + enc-method = "hex" / "unicode" + enc-argument = hex-list + hex-list = hex-group *(WSP hex-group) + hex-group = 1*6HEXDIG + + Arbitrary octets can be embedded in strings by using the encoding + method "hex". The sequence is replaced by the octets with the + hexadecimal values given by each hex-group. Values greater than + 255 ("ff") are a syntax error. + + It may be inconvenient or undesirable to enter Unicode characters + verbatim, and in these cases the method "unicode" can be used. The + sequence is replaced by the UTF-8 encoding of the specified Unicode + characters, whose code points are identified by the hexadecimal + value of each hex-group. + + Values for enc-method or enc-argument which don't match the above + syntax SHOULD cause a syntax error. Implementations SHOULD support + encoded NUL octets. + + The capability string for use with the require command is + "encoded-character". + + In the following script, message A is discarded, since the + specified test string is equivalent to "$$$". + + Example: require "encoded-character"; + if header :contains "Subject" "$${hex:24 24}" { + discard; + } + 2.5. Tests Tests are given as arguments to commands in order to control their @@ -1075,7 +1119,7 @@ Implementations MUST support the "keep", "discard", and "redirect" actions. - Implementations SHOULD support "fileinto". + Implementations SHOULD support "fileinto" and "encoded-character". Implementations MAY limit the number of certain actions taken (see section 2.10.4). @@ -1561,6 +1605,12 @@ RFC number: this RFC (Sieve base spec) Contact address: The Sieve discussion list <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org> + Capability name: encoded-character + Description: changes the parsing of strings to allow arbitrary + characters to be embedded + RFC number: this RFC (Sieve base spec) + Contact address: The Sieve discussion list <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org> + Capability name: comparator-* (anything starting with "comparator-") Description: adds the indicated comparator for use with the :comparator argument --=-bshwpV56rNS3vYZbVhLk-- Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k9KJoCAo045593; Fri, 20 Oct 2006 12:50:12 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k9KJoCCq045592; Fri, 20 Oct 2006 12:50:12 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ns1.neustar.com (ns1.neustar.com [156.154.16.138]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k9KJo9vt045540 for <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org>; Fri, 20 Oct 2006 12:50:11 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from ietf@ietf.org) Received: from stiedprstage1.ietf.org (stiedprstage1.va.neustar.com [10.31.47.10]) by ns1.neustar.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE43C26E57; Fri, 20 Oct 2006 19:50:01 +0000 (GMT) Received: from ietf by stiedprstage1.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1Gb0NV-0001tX-OI; Fri, 20 Oct 2006 15:50:01 -0400 Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; Boundary="NextPart" Mime-Version: 1.0 To: i-d-announce@ietf.org Cc: ietf-mta-filters@imc.org From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Subject: I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-sieve-notify-04.txt Message-Id: <E1Gb0NV-0001tX-OI@stiedprstage1.ietf.org> Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2006 15:50:01 -0400 Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-mta-filters/mail-archive/> List-ID: <ietf-mta-filters.imc.org> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-mta-filters-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> --NextPart A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Sieve Mail Filtering Language Working Group of the IETF. Title : Sieve Extension: Notifications Author(s) : A. Melnikov, et al. Filename : draft-ietf-sieve-notify-04.txt Pages : 16 Date : 2006-10-20 Users go to great lengths to be notified as quickly as possible that they have received new mail. Most of these methods involve polling to check for new messages periodically. A push method handled by the final delivery agent gives users quicker notifications and saves server resources. This document does not specify the notification method but is expected that using existing instant messaging infrastructure such as Zephyr, Jabber, or SMS messages will be popular. This draft describes an extension to the Sieve mail filtering language that allows users to give specific rules for how and when notifications should be sent. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-sieve-notify-04.txt To remove yourself from the I-D Announcement list, send a message to i-d-announce-request@ietf.org with the word unsubscribe in the body of the message. You can also visit https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/I-D-announce to change your subscription settings. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then "get draft-ietf-sieve-notify-04.txt". A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. Send a message to: mailserv@ietf.org. In the body type: "FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-sieve-notify-04.txt". NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility. To use this feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE" command. To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or a MIME-compliant mail reader. Different MIME-compliant mail readers exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on how to manipulate these messages. Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. --NextPart Content-Type: Multipart/Alternative; Boundary="OtherAccess" --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; access-type="mail-server"; server="mailserv@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2006-10-20132159.I-D@ietf.org> ENCODING mime FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-sieve-notify-04.txt --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; name="draft-ietf-sieve-notify-04.txt"; site="ftp.ietf.org"; access-type="anon-ftp"; directory="internet-drafts" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2006-10-20132159.I-D@ietf.org> --OtherAccess-- --NextPart-- Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k9KDLO61007253; Fri, 20 Oct 2006 06:21:24 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k9KDLNP6007251; Fri, 20 Oct 2006 06:21:23 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from pat.uio.no (IDENT:7411@pat.uio.no [129.240.10.4]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k9KDLLUP007174 for <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org>; Fri, 20 Oct 2006 06:21:22 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from kjetilho@ifi.uio.no) Received: from mail-mx7.uio.no ([129.240.10.52]) by pat.uio.no with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GauJI-0000Cw-6S; Fri, 20 Oct 2006 15:21:16 +0200 Received: from havhest.ifi.uio.no ([129.240.68.231]) by mail-mx7.uio.no with esmtpsa (TLSv1:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 4.43) id 1GauJE-00014c-0G; Fri, 20 Oct 2006 15:21:12 +0200 Subject: Re: Proposal for escaping on non-UTF-8 sequences in Sieve From: Kjetil Torgrim Homme <kjetilho@ifi.uio.no> To: Philip Guenther <guenther+mtafilters@sendmail.com> Cc: ietf-mta-filters@imc.org In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSO.4.64.0610191729520.11589@vanye.mho.net> References: <450DCEB9.2030403@isode.com> <20060918145149.GA11806@nostromo.freenet-ag.de> <450EB687.7000406@isode.com> <01M7C479AQ780008CX@mauve.mrochek.com> <20060918202050.GC12279@nostromo.freenet-ag.de> <Pine.BSO.4.64.0609181509400.7779@vanye.mho.net> <1159711450.13064.77.camel@honbori.ifi.uio.no> <1160097878.27906.128.camel@mattugur.ifi.uio.no> <452667CD.2080004@isode.com> <1160146633.11473.12.camel@havhest.ifi.uio.no> <45268BDD.3030309@isode.com> <1161193796.15774.99.camel@havhest.ifi.uio.no> <Pine.BSO.4.64.0610191729520.11589@vanye.mho.net> Content-Type: text/plain Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2006 15:21:09 +0200 Message-Id: <1161350471.26871.61.camel@havhest.ifi.uio.no> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UiO-Spam-info: not spam, SpamAssassin (score=-4.637, required 12, autolearn=disabled, AWL 0.36, UIO_MAIL_IS_INTERNAL -5.00) Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-mta-filters/mail-archive/> List-ID: <ietf-mta-filters.imc.org> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-mta-filters-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> On Thu, 2006-10-19 at 18:28 -0600, Philip Guenther wrote: > As for the name of the extension, I think it should be "encoded-character" > instead of "quoted-character": this is not a quoting scheme but rather an > encoding scheme. agreed. > Regarding the description of the language in section 2.1, how does the > following addition (based on text from Alexey) look: > > While this specification permits arbitrary octets to appear in > sieve scripts inside strings and comments, this has made it > difficult to robustly handle sieve scripts in user interfaces. > The "encoded-character" capability (section 2.4.2.4) provides an > alternative means of representing such octets in strings using > just US-ASCII characters. As such, the use of non-UTF-8 text in > scripts should be considered a deprecated feature that may be > abandoned. > > That would be inserted as the third paragraph in that section and given > additional indentation (ala the behaviors described in section 2.7.2). this is good enough for me. I think "deprecated" is stronger than "SHOULD NOT" in practice :-) -- Kjetil T. Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k9KDI6D0006496; Fri, 20 Oct 2006 06:18:06 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k9KDI6vo006495; Fri, 20 Oct 2006 06:18:06 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from pat.uio.no (IDENT:7411@pat.uio.no [129.240.10.4]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k9KDI4Kx006476 for <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org>; Fri, 20 Oct 2006 06:18:05 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from kjetilho@ifi.uio.no) Received: from mail-mx4.uio.no ([129.240.10.45]) by pat.uio.no with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GauG4-0007D3-Cu; Fri, 20 Oct 2006 15:17:56 +0200 Received: from havhest.ifi.uio.no ([129.240.68.231]) by mail-mx4.uio.no with esmtpsa (TLSv1:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 4.43) id 1GauFy-0001Lz-2c; Fri, 20 Oct 2006 15:17:50 +0200 Subject: Re: Proposal for escaping on non-UTF-8 sequences in Sieve From: Kjetil Torgrim Homme <kjetilho@ifi.uio.no> To: Nigel Swinson <Nigel.Swinson@rockliffe.com> Cc: Michael Haardt <michael@freenet-ag.de>, ietf-mta-filters@imc.org In-Reply-To: <00da01c6f445$1f05c370$0202fea9@nigelhome> References: <450DCEB9.2030403@isode.com> <20060918145149.GA11806@nostromo.freenet-ag.de> <450EB687.7000406@isode.com> <01M7C479AQ780008CX@mauve.mrochek.com> <20060918202050.GC12279@nostromo.freenet-ag.de> <Pine.BSO.4.64.0609181509400.7779@vanye.mho.net> <1159711450.13064.77.camel@honbori.ifi.uio.no> <1160097878.27906.128.camel@mattugur.ifi.uio.no> <Pine.BSO.4.64.0610200135410.11589@vanye.mho.net> <E1GaquO-0005i2-Ny@nostromo.freenet-ag.de> <45389FB1.5070707@isode.com> <E1Gat99-0005oJ-IE@nostromo.freenet-ag.de> <00da01c6f445$1f05c370$0202fea9@nigelhome> Content-Type: text/plain Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2006 15:17:48 +0200 Message-Id: <1161350269.26871.56.camel@havhest.ifi.uio.no> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UiO-Spam-info: not spam, SpamAssassin (score=-4.979, required 12, autolearn=disabled, AWL 0.02, UIO_MAIL_IS_INTERNAL -5.00) Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-mta-filters/mail-archive/> List-ID: <ietf-mta-filters.imc.org> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-mta-filters-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> On Fri, 2006-10-20 at 13:41 +0100, Nigel Swinson wrote: > > I disagree. I think encoded-octet and variables should be independent > > extensions. > > I agree ditto. > > That's 2:1 now saying we need a new extension to evaluate "${hex:${variable}}". > > Anybody else? > > I would want ${hex:${variable}} to be a syntax error if "hex" was > requir()ed, and valid if variables was require()ed and "hex" was not. > I don't see a need for recursive evaluation. I'm used to one pass, > just like dequoting. At the moment I can't think of any recursive > string expansion out there... Instead put your hex into ${variable} > when constructing it. this implies variables should evaluated first. I must admit I envisaged a single pass (concurrent evaluation) with no backtracking, which means "${hex:${var}}" -> "${hex:VALUE}" "${v${hex:61}}" -> "${var}" but I now think it makes more sense to order them explicitly. it makes most sense to have encoded-character evaluated before variables (since it's defined in the base spec), but it's probably more useful to do variables before encoded-characters, as Nigel demonstrates. oh. I just realised my suggestion has the same shortcoming as the variables syntax: it won't raise syntax errors, since it only matches well-formed character sequences. I may have a look at fixing that during the weekend. -- Kjetil T. Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k9KCo4ke003699; Fri, 20 Oct 2006 05:50:04 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k9KCo4Xs003698; Fri, 20 Oct 2006 05:50:04 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mout2.freenet.de (mout2.freenet.de [194.97.50.155]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k9KCo3aS003690 for <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org>; Fri, 20 Oct 2006 05:50:04 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from michael@freenet-ag.de) Received: from [194.97.55.191] (helo=mx7.freenet.de) by mout2.freenet.de with esmtpa (Exim 4.62) (envelope-from <michael@freenet-ag.de>) id 1Gatp4-0001TY-PQ for ietf-mta-filters@imc.org; Fri, 20 Oct 2006 14:50:02 +0200 Received: from nostromo.freenet-ag.de ([194.97.7.6]) by mx7.freenet.de with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.62 #12) id 1Gatp4-0006EZ-NR for ietf-mta-filters@imc.org; Fri, 20 Oct 2006 14:50:02 +0200 Received: from michael by nostromo.freenet-ag.de with local (ID michael) (Exim 4.62 #12) id 1Gatp2-0005zk-2q for ietf-mta-filters@imc.org; Fri, 20 Oct 2006 14:50:00 +0200 Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2006 14:50:00 +0200 To: ietf-mta-filters@imc.org Subject: Re: Proposal for escaping on non-UTF-8 sequences in Sieve References: <450DCEB9.2030403@isode.com> <20060918145149.GA11806@nostromo.freenet-ag.de> <450EB687.7000406@isode.com> <01M7C479AQ780008CX@mauve.mrochek.com> <20060918202050.GC12279@nostromo.freenet-ag.de> <Pine.BSO.4.64.0609181509400.7779@vanye.mho.net> <1159711450.13064.77.camel@honbori.ifi.uio.no> <1160097878.27906.128.camel@mattugur.ifi.uio.no> <Pine.BSO.4.64.0610200135410.11589@vanye.mho.net> <E1GaquO-0005i2-Ny@nostromo.freenet-ag.de> <45389FB1.5070707@isode.com> <E1Gat99-0005oJ-IE@nostromo.freenet-ag.de> <00da01c6f445$1f05c370$0202fea9@nigelhome> In-Reply-To: <00da01c6f445$1f05c370$0202fea9@nigelhome> User-Agent: Heirloom mailx 12.1 6/15/06 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <E1Gatp2-0005zk-2q@nostromo.freenet-ag.de> From: Michael Haardt <michael@freenet-ag.de> Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-mta-filters/mail-archive/> List-ID: <ietf-mta-filters.imc.org> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-mta-filters-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> > > I disagree. I think encoded-octet and variables should be independent > > extensions. > > I agree Ok, so let both be top-level things, working independent of each other. > > That's 2:1 now saying we need a new extension to evaluate "${hex:${variable}}". > > Anybody else? > > I would want ${hex:${variable}} to be a syntax error if "hex" was requir()ed, and valid if variables was require()ed and "hex" was not. I don't see a need for recursive evaluation. I'm used to one pass, just like dequoting. At the moment I can't think of any recursive string expansion out there... Instead put your hex into ${variable} when constructing it. Hmm. So the result of the second would be "${hex:variable value}"? I tend to say: If ${ is seen and there is no }, or stuff inside that can't be processed for whatever reason, then cause an error. But I am not sure how variables defined that so far. Michael Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k9KCfPnT002702; Fri, 20 Oct 2006 05:41:25 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k9KCfPw7002701; Fri, 20 Oct 2006 05:41:25 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.rockliffe.com (mail.rockliffe.com [147.208.128.10]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k9KCfOQB002667 for <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org>; Fri, 20 Oct 2006 05:41:24 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from Nigel.Swinson@rockliffe.com) X-Spam-Score-scoring_explanation: X-Spam-Score-spf_status: X-Spam-Score-Spamcatcher1: 2ccc5e07bb0018aea219e173bd0975b2 X-Spam-Score-Summary: 2,0,0,1042f17134ee755d,43cc87f922f1c253,nigel.swinson@rockliffe.com,,RULES_HIT:355:379:539:540:541:542:543:567:599:601:945:988:989:1155:1156:1261:1277:1311:1313:1314:1345:1437:1513:1515:1516:1518:1521:1534:1538:1587:1593:1594:1711:1714:1730:1747:1766:1792:2073:2075:2078:2393:2559:2562:2828:3027:3351:3865:3866:3867:3868:3869:3872:3874:4470,0,RBL:none,CacheIP:none,Bayesian:0.5,0.5,0.5,Netcheck:none,DomainCache:0,MSF:not bulk,SPF:,MSBL:none,DNSBL:none X-Spam-Score-rbl_summary: none X-Spam-Score-Phishing_status: no X-Spam-Score-Countries: X-Spam-Score-Charsets: iso-8859-1 X-Spam-Score: 1 Received: from nigelhome (unverified [10.42.44.151]) by mail.rockliffe.com (Rockliffe SMTPRA 7.0.3) with ESMTP id <B0003628745@mail.rockliffe.com>; Fri, 20 Oct 2006 05:41:15 -0700 Message-ID: <00da01c6f445$1f05c370$0202fea9@nigelhome> From: "Nigel Swinson" <Nigel.Swinson@rockliffe.com> To: "Michael Haardt" <michael@freenet-ag.de> Cc: <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org> References: <450DCEB9.2030403@isode.com> <20060918145149.GA11806@nostromo.freenet-ag.de> <450EB687.7000406@isode.com> <01M7C479AQ780008CX@mauve.mrochek.com> <20060918202050.GC12279@nostromo.freenet-ag.de> <Pine.BSO.4.64.0609181509400.7779@vanye.mho.net> <1159711450.13064.77.camel@honbori.ifi.uio.no> <1160097878.27906.128.camel@mattugur.ifi.uio.no> <Pine.BSO.4.64.0610200135410.11589@vanye.mho.net> <E1GaquO-0005i2-Ny@nostromo.freenet-ag.de> <45389FB1.5070707@isode.com> <E1Gat99-0005oJ-IE@nostromo.freenet-ag.de> Subject: Re: Proposal for escaping on non-UTF-8 sequences in Sieve Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2006 13:41:51 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1807 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1807 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by balder-227.proper.com id k9KCfOQB002696 Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-mta-filters/mail-archive/> List-ID: <ietf-mta-filters.imc.org> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-mta-filters-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> > I disagree. I think encoded-octet and variables should be independent > extensions. I agree > That's 2:1 now saying we need a new extension to evaluate "${hex:${variable}}". > Anybody else? I would want ${hex:${variable}} to be a syntax error if "hex" was requir()ed, and valid if variables was require()ed and "hex" was not. I don't see a need for recursive evaluation. I'm used to one pass, just like dequoting. At the moment I can't think of any recursive string expansion out there... Instead put your hex into ${variable} when constructing it. Nigel Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k9KC6n8n099268; Fri, 20 Oct 2006 05:06:49 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k9KC6npd099267; Fri, 20 Oct 2006 05:06:49 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mout1.freenet.de (mout1.freenet.de [194.97.50.132]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k9KC6lSm099260 for <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org>; Fri, 20 Oct 2006 05:06:48 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from michael@freenet-ag.de) Received: from [194.97.55.190] (helo=mx6.freenet.de) by mout1.freenet.de with esmtpa (Exim 4.62) (envelope-from <michael@freenet-ag.de>) id 1Gat9C-0002xZ-7Z for ietf-mta-filters@imc.org; Fri, 20 Oct 2006 14:06:46 +0200 Received: from nostromo.freenet-ag.de ([194.97.7.6]) by mx6.freenet.de with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.62 #12) id 1Gat9C-00073d-5Z for ietf-mta-filters@imc.org; Fri, 20 Oct 2006 14:06:46 +0200 Received: from michael by nostromo.freenet-ag.de with local (ID michael) (Exim 4.62 #12) id 1Gat99-0005oJ-IE for ietf-mta-filters@imc.org; Fri, 20 Oct 2006 14:06:43 +0200 Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2006 14:06:43 +0200 To: ietf-mta-filters@imc.org Subject: Re: Proposal for escaping on non-UTF-8 sequences in Sieve References: <450DCEB9.2030403@isode.com> <20060918145149.GA11806@nostromo.freenet-ag.de> <450EB687.7000406@isode.com> <01M7C479AQ780008CX@mauve.mrochek.com> <20060918202050.GC12279@nostromo.freenet-ag.de> <Pine.BSO.4.64.0609181509400.7779@vanye.mho.net> <1159711450.13064.77.camel@honbori.ifi.uio.no> <1160097878.27906.128.camel@mattugur.ifi.uio.no> <Pine.BSO.4.64.0610200135410.11589@vanye.mho.net> <E1GaquO-0005i2-Ny@nostromo.freenet-ag.de> <45389FB1.5070707@isode.com> In-Reply-To: <45389FB1.5070707@isode.com> User-Agent: Heirloom mailx 12.1 6/15/06 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <E1Gat99-0005oJ-IE@nostromo.freenet-ag.de> From: Michael Haardt <michael@freenet-ag.de> Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-mta-filters/mail-archive/> List-ID: <ietf-mta-filters.imc.org> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-mta-filters-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> > >>Which comes first, encoding replacement or variable expansion? Or are > >>they concurrent? Whatever the answer, the variables I-D will need to make > >>that clear. > >>(I think encoding replacement should come before variable expansion.) > >> > >> > >I think they should be processed inside-out, but not in separate > >passes. Variables introduce of the concept of strings (aka test > >and action arguments) not being literals, but string expressions that > >are evaluated. It makes sense that arguments of string functions > >turn from literals to string expressions, too. > > > >As a result, without variables, "${hex:${hex:4646}}" is a syntax error. > > > >With variables, it is "FF". > > > > > I disagree. I think encoded-octet and variables should be independent > extensions. That's 2:1 now saying we need a new extension to evaluate "${hex:${variable}}". Anybody else? > Speaking as implementor I am more likely to implement encoded-octets first. So am I. Michael Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k9KC17uH098841; Fri, 20 Oct 2006 05:01:07 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k9KC17RO098840; Fri, 20 Oct 2006 05:01:07 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mout2.freenet.de (mout2.freenet.de [194.97.50.155]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k9KC16vM098832 for <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org>; Fri, 20 Oct 2006 05:01:06 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from michael@freenet-ag.de) Received: from [194.97.55.242] (helo=mx9.freenet.de) by mout2.freenet.de with esmtpa (Exim 4.62) (envelope-from <michael@freenet-ag.de>) id 1Gat3h-0006aa-36 for ietf-mta-filters@imc.org; Fri, 20 Oct 2006 14:01:05 +0200 Received: from nostromo.freenet-ag.de ([194.97.7.6]) by mx9.freenet.de with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.62 #12) id 1Gat3h-0006xA-1b for ietf-mta-filters@imc.org; Fri, 20 Oct 2006 14:01:05 +0200 Received: from michael by nostromo.freenet-ag.de with local (ID michael) (Exim 4.62 #12) id 1Gat3e-0005o2-Db for ietf-mta-filters@imc.org; Fri, 20 Oct 2006 14:01:02 +0200 Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2006 14:01:02 +0200 To: ietf-mta-filters@imc.org Subject: Re: Proposal for escaping on non-UTF-8 sequences in Sieve References: <450DCEB9.2030403@isode.com> <20060918145149.GA11806@nostromo.freenet-ag.de> <450EB687.7000406@isode.com> <01M7C479AQ780008CX@mauve.mrochek.com> <20060918202050.GC12279@nostromo.freenet-ag.de> <Pine.BSO.4.64.0609181509400.7779@vanye.mho.net> <1159711450.13064.77.camel@honbori.ifi.uio.no> <1160097878.27906.128.camel@mattugur.ifi.uio.no> <Pine.BSO.4.64.0610200135410.11589@vanye.mho.net> <E1GaquO-0005i2-Ny@nostromo.freenet-ag.de> <Pine.BSO.4.64.0610200411340.11589@vanye.mho.net> In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSO.4.64.0610200411340.11589@vanye.mho.net> User-Agent: Heirloom mailx 12.1 6/15/06 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <E1Gat3e-0005o2-Db@nostromo.freenet-ag.de> From: Michael Haardt <michael@freenet-ag.de> Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-mta-filters/mail-archive/> List-ID: <ietf-mta-filters.imc.org> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-mta-filters-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> > If you're referring to RFC 2047's Q encoding, 3028bis currently says: > > <...> An encoded NUL octet > (character zero) SHOULD NOT cause early termination of the header > content being compared against. > > So an implementation that refused to match beyond the =00 would still be > "conditionally compliant". So how about handling an encoded NUL in strings just the same? SHOULD NOT is reasonable. > The original MIME documents didn't make an exception for NUL...and that > had to be changed when they were revised as part of moving to Draft > Standard. RFC 2049 says: > (17) The definitions of "7bit" and "8bit" have been > tightened so that use of bare CR, LF can only be used > as end-of-line sequences. The document also no longer > requires that NUL characters be preserved, which brings > MIME into alignment with real-world implementations. Without looking it up, it sounds as if that applies to unencoded NUL characters. I agree there is a real-world problem with them and the above makes perfect sense. I would not like if quoted-printable may drop =00. > 1) Given that variables are *explicitly* not handled that way, why should > that be true of these? > > 2) Why would pulling in the variable capabilty change the behavior of the > above? > > 2) The behavior you describe would be useful how? The variable capability changes how argument string are interpreted. Arguments to string functions are strings, too. That's why it makes sense to me that variables cause recursive evaluation, but that may just be me. Implementations that do not implement variables can scan strings with a linear effort and without the need for recursion or a parser. Side-effect free functions of constant arguments can be evaluated until you reach the top level, which can not be represented in UTF-8, hence we need the top level to encode the result, but no more. I don't insist on this behaviour, it was just a suggestion. Using ${hex:...} opens the door to other string functions, and we are really talking about introducing string functions here and the question is: Which extension introduces recursive evaluation? I suggested variables, but it may as well be some not-yet-specified extension. > My interactions with Sendmail's Japanese customers tell me that > ISO-2022-JP is still heavily preferred over UTF-8 in email in Japan. Are > you claiming otherwise? Or do you think that it doesn't matter? Actually, my feedback from customers is that national character sets are still preferred over UTF-8 - independent of their location. I am REAL GLAD Sieve went the UTF-8 route to begin with, because national character sets are a royal pain and I hope that historic crap disappears some day. Each day Unicode is used a little more, we are a little closer to that point. Personally, I have no stuff capable of displaying UTF-8, and looking at other (Linux) installations, the claim of being able to switch completely to Unicode is not YET true. iconv(1) and similar tools help a lot with existing installations that are tied to national character sets, e.g. when viewing a Sieve script stored in UTF-8 on my ISO-8859-15 display. Japanese may be worse, but German has a non-US-ASCII letter that only exists in lower case. Translating it to upper case results in two letters and you can not convert it back without a dictionary. It's not like I would be ignorant of non-US-ASCII text. I had hordes of customers yell and scream at me that they will cease to exist without their open SMTP relay. Some probably still hate me for having to close it. I don't always listen to their wishes. Michael Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k9KB1YlV093180; Fri, 20 Oct 2006 04:01:34 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k9KB1YRk093179; Fri, 20 Oct 2006 04:01:34 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp-out.sendmail.com (smtp-out.sendmail.com [209.246.26.45]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k9KB1X6Z093172 for <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org>; Fri, 20 Oct 2006 04:01:33 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from guenther+mtafilters@sendmail.com) Received: from [10.201.0.58] (adsl-64-58-1-252.mho.net [64.58.1.252] (may be forged)) (authenticated bits=0) by foon.sendmail.com (Switch-3.2.5/Switch-3.2.0) with ESMTP id k9KB1J2G002661 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 20 Oct 2006 04:01:22 -0700 X-DKIM: Sendmail DKIM Filter v0.5.1 foon.sendmail.com k9KB1J2G002661 DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/simple; d=sendmail.com; s=tls.dkim; t=1161342087; bh=witShxouhqrB42ClxJjAbu/PBCY=; h=X-DomainKeys: DomainKey-Signature:Date:From:X-X-Sender:To:cc:Subject:In-Reply-To: Message-ID:References:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=dEstz0pvuOvzn582 KsAqPyDfo1mAAX7IlpHZH5TWZa0XGyzN3oZE6EkWGgLccbfmuftvCpGg77R1GbBjIqF lDVia59RD21a3HYazyTrZpgTONbX6sCCnJVkC0mPqceXc6dLEYSQwwPmHGXv50JYsOR bZ/Uf/YAo4KusoaHdsd+0= X-DomainKeys: Sendmail DomainKeys Filter v0.4.1 foon.sendmail.com k9KB1J2G002661 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; s=tls; d=sendmail.com; c=nofws; q=dns; h=date:from:x-x-sender:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:message-id: references:mime-version:content-type; b=OAbd7o+18lfl8b8kR7+nt+4ecZv1qg1aEhiVFRPAEne7ZDwLMpjUoJhbHOWIUhW3B Coy33J6Kf6VCc1l/vMqaOMe0CxTBQXDX7Vf+h56AjyHHRmMMeIeE1qN2hCkcupmpmlZ gOcLSkwtWrxJrAKrfNh3TsSuta39t1uz4ySoEVQ= Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2006 05:01:19 -0600 From: Philip Guenther <guenther+mtafilters@sendmail.com> X-X-Sender: guenther@vanye.mho.net To: Michael Haardt <michael@freenet-ag.de> cc: ietf-mta-filters@imc.org Subject: Re: Proposal for escaping on non-UTF-8 sequences in Sieve In-Reply-To: <E1GaquO-0005i2-Ny@nostromo.freenet-ag.de> Message-ID: <Pine.BSO.4.64.0610200411340.11589@vanye.mho.net> References: <450DCEB9.2030403@isode.com> <20060918145149.GA11806@nostromo.freenet-ag.de> <450EB687.7000406@isode.com> <01M7C479AQ780008CX@mauve.mrochek.com> <20060918202050.GC12279@nostromo.freenet-ag.de> <Pine.BSO.4.64.0609181509400.7779@vanye.mho.net> <1159711450.13064.77.camel@honbori.ifi.uio.no> <1160097878.27906.128.camel@mattugur.ifi.uio.no> <Pine.BSO.4.64.0610200135410.11589@vanye.mho.net> <E1GaquO-0005i2-Ny@nostromo.freenet-ag.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-mta-filters/mail-archive/> List-ID: <ietf-mta-filters.imc.org> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-mta-filters-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> On Fri, 20 Oct 2006, Michael Haardt wrote: >> Do implementations have to support encodings of NUL ala ${hex:0}? If so, >> that will be a barrier to this extension being broadly supported. >> (I think it should be a "MAY support".) > nn> Note that =00 in quoted printable has to be dealt with already. If you're referring to RFC 2047's Q encoding, 3028bis currently says: <...> An encoded NUL octet (character zero) SHOULD NOT cause early termination of the header content being compared against. So an implementation that refused to match beyond the =00 would still be "conditionally compliant". > An implementation that uses nul-terminated strings is already broken > and things will not get worse using an encoded NUL character in a string. So, in your opinion, being able to insert NUL into strings is as important as the ability to encode other, non-UTF-8, non-NUL octets, and that support for those capabilities should therefore be tied? I think the result will be fewer implementations of this extension as well as implementation that don't actually comply. The original MIME documents didn't make an exception for NUL...and that had to be changed when they were revised as part of moving to Draft Standard. RFC 2049 says: (17) The definitions of "7bit" and "8bit" have been tightened so that use of bare CR, LF can only be used as end-of-line sequences. The document also no longer requires that NUL characters be preserved, which brings MIME into alignment with real-world implementations. >> Which comes first, encoding replacement or variable expansion? Or are >> they concurrent? Whatever the answer, the variables I-D will need to make >> that clear. >> (I think encoding replacement should come before variable expansion.) > > I think they should be processed inside-out, but not in separate > passes. Variables introduce of the concept of strings (aka test > and action arguments) not being literals, but string expressions that > are evaluated. It makes sense that arguments of string functions > turn from literals to string expressions, too. > > As a result, without variables, "${hex:${hex:4646}}" is a syntax error. No, it would be replaced with "${hex:FF}" > With variables, it is "FF". 1) Given that variables are *explicitly* not handled that way, why should that be true of these? 2) Why would pulling in the variable capabilty change the behavior of the above? 2) The behavior you describe would be useful how? >> I'll note that while a script that uses this extension for all non-UTF8 >> octets may be displayable without munging, the result may still be >> incomprehensible if, for example, an 8bit ISO-2022-JP MIME part is >> included in a string. Indeed, such encoding will probably make it more >> difficult to display that MIME part readably: currently, if a user is >> viewing the script with raw ISO-2022-JP in it they can probably display >> that MIME part by overriding their browser's charset encoding for the >> page. > > Indeed, a hack like that is not as useful any more. But it was a hack > to begin with, because overriding the charset encoding renders contained > UTF-8 text useless. No, US-ASCII is a subset of ISO-2022-JP, so at least the syntax portions of the script would still be readable. Is it a hack? Yes. Does it work? Yes. Will there be any equivalent when the raw ISO-2022-JP is encoded using ${hex}? I strongly doubt it. > Convert the ISO-2022-JP part to UTF-8. My interactions with Sendmail's Japanese customers tell me that ISO-2022-JP is still heavily preferred over UTF-8 in email in Japan. Are you claiming otherwise? Or do you think that it doesn't matter? Philip Guenther Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k9KA7eeA087921; Fri, 20 Oct 2006 03:07:40 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k9KA7ed9087920; Fri, 20 Oct 2006 03:07:40 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rufus.isode.com (rufus.isode.com [62.3.217.251]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k9KA7daT087913 for <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org>; Fri, 20 Oct 2006 03:07:39 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from alexey.melnikov@isode.com) Received: from [172.16.2.166] (shiny.isode.com [62.3.217.250]) by rufus.isode.com (submission channel) via TCP with ESMTPA id <RTif6QAkUbha@rufus.isode.com>; Fri, 20 Oct 2006 11:07:38 +0100 Message-ID: <45389FB1.5070707@isode.com> Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2006 11:06:41 +0100 From: Alexey Melnikov <alexey.melnikov@isode.com> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050915 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Michael Haardt <michael@freenet-ag.de> CC: ietf-mta-filters@imc.org Subject: Re: Proposal for escaping on non-UTF-8 sequences in Sieve References: <450DCEB9.2030403@isode.com> <20060918145149.GA11806@nostromo.freenet-ag.de> <450EB687.7000406@isode.com> <01M7C479AQ780008CX@mauve.mrochek.com> <20060918202050.GC12279@nostromo.freenet-ag.de> <Pine.BSO.4.64.0609181509400.7779@vanye.mho.net> <1159711450.13064.77.camel@honbori.ifi.uio.no> <1160097878.27906.128.camel@mattugur.ifi.uio.no> <Pine.BSO.4.64.0610200135410.11589@vanye.mho.net> <E1GaquO-0005i2-Ny@nostromo.freenet-ag.de> In-Reply-To: <E1GaquO-0005i2-Ny@nostromo.freenet-ag.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-mta-filters/mail-archive/> List-ID: <ietf-mta-filters.imc.org> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-mta-filters-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> Michael Haardt wrote: >>Do implementations have to support encodings of NUL ala ${hex:0}? If so, >>that will be a barrier to this extension being broadly supported. >>(I think it should be a "MAY support".) >> >> > >Note that =00 in quoted printable has to be dealt with already. >An implementation that uses nul-terminated strings is already broken >and things will not get worse using an encoded NUL character in a string. > > Right. >>Which comes first, encoding replacement or variable expansion? Or are >>they concurrent? Whatever the answer, the variables I-D will need to make >>that clear. >>(I think encoding replacement should come before variable expansion.) >> >> >I think they should be processed inside-out, but not in separate >passes. Variables introduce of the concept of strings (aka test >and action arguments) not being literals, but string expressions that >are evaluated. It makes sense that arguments of string functions >turn from literals to string expressions, too. > >As a result, without variables, "${hex:${hex:4646}}" is a syntax error. > >With variables, it is "FF". > > I disagree. I think encoded-octet and variables should be independent extensions. Speaking as implementor I am more likely to implement encoded-octets first. >>The next rev of the base-spec includes this: >> Extensions MUST NOT change the behavior of the "require" >> control command. >>I believe that means that this extension can't be used in the capability >>argument to 'require', so there's at least one place where Unicode >>characters can't be encoded using ${unicode:...}. >> >> >That's right. The require argument can not contain variables either, >and I consider that a good thing [tm]. > > Agreed. Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k9K9hP0r084847; Fri, 20 Oct 2006 02:43:25 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k9K9hP9s084846; Fri, 20 Oct 2006 02:43:25 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mout0.freenet.de (mout0.freenet.de [194.97.50.131]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k9K9hM0s084830 for <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org>; Fri, 20 Oct 2006 02:43:24 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from michael@freenet-ag.de) Received: from [194.97.55.148] (helo=mx5.freenet.de) by mout0.freenet.de with esmtpa (Exim 4.62) (envelope-from <michael@freenet-ag.de>) id 1GaquP-0000ak-EE for ietf-mta-filters@imc.org; Fri, 20 Oct 2006 11:43:21 +0200 Received: from nostromo.freenet-ag.de ([194.97.7.6]) by mx5.freenet.de with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.62 #12) id 1GaquP-0007gB-9n for ietf-mta-filters@imc.org; Fri, 20 Oct 2006 11:43:21 +0200 Received: from michael by nostromo.freenet-ag.de with local (ID michael) (Exim 4.62 #12) id 1GaquO-0005i2-Ny for ietf-mta-filters@imc.org; Fri, 20 Oct 2006 11:43:20 +0200 Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2006 11:43:20 +0200 To: ietf-mta-filters@imc.org Subject: Re: Proposal for escaping on non-UTF-8 sequences in Sieve References: <450DCEB9.2030403@isode.com> <20060918145149.GA11806@nostromo.freenet-ag.de> <450EB687.7000406@isode.com> <01M7C479AQ780008CX@mauve.mrochek.com> <20060918202050.GC12279@nostromo.freenet-ag.de> <Pine.BSO.4.64.0609181509400.7779@vanye.mho.net> <1159711450.13064.77.camel@honbori.ifi.uio.no> <1160097878.27906.128.camel@mattugur.ifi.uio.no> <Pine.BSO.4.64.0610200135410.11589@vanye.mho.net> In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSO.4.64.0610200135410.11589@vanye.mho.net> User-Agent: Heirloom mailx 12.1 6/15/06 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <E1GaquO-0005i2-Ny@nostromo.freenet-ag.de> From: Michael Haardt <michael@freenet-ag.de> Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-mta-filters/mail-archive/> List-ID: <ietf-mta-filters.imc.org> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-mta-filters-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> > Do implementations have to support encodings of NUL ala ${hex:0}? If so, > that will be a barrier to this extension being broadly supported. > (I think it should be a "MAY support".) Note that =00 in quoted printable has to be dealt with already. An implementation that uses nul-terminated strings is already broken and things will not get worse using an encoded NUL character in a string. > Which comes first, encoding replacement or variable expansion? Or are > they concurrent? Whatever the answer, the variables I-D will need to make > that clear. > (I think encoding replacement should come before variable expansion.) I think they should be processed inside-out, but not in separate passes. Variables introduce of the concept of strings (aka test and action arguments) not being literals, but string expressions that are evaluated. It makes sense that arguments of string functions turn from literals to string expressions, too. As a result, without variables, "${hex:${hex:4646}}" is a syntax error. With variables, it is "FF". > The next rev of the base-spec includes this: > Extensions MUST NOT change the behavior of the "require" > control command. > I believe that means that this extension can't be used in the capability > argument to 'require', so there's at least one place where Unicode > characters can't be encoded using ${unicode:...}. That's right. The require argument can not contain variables either, and I consider that a good thing [tm]. > I'll note that while a script that uses this extension for all non-UTF8 > octets may be displayable without munging, the result may still be > incomprehensible if, for example, an 8bit ISO-2022-JP MIME part is > included in a string. Indeed, such encoding will probably make it more > difficult to display that MIME part readably: currently, if a user is > viewing the script with raw ISO-2022-JP in it they can probably display > that MIME part by overriding their browser's charset encoding for the > page. Indeed, a hack like that is not as useful any more. But it was a hack to begin with, because overriding the charset encoding renders contained UTF-8 text useless. Convert the ISO-2022-JP part to UTF-8. Michael Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k9K8WmsT076502; Fri, 20 Oct 2006 01:32:48 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k9K8WmsN076501; Fri, 20 Oct 2006 01:32:48 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp-out.sendmail.com (smtp-out.sendmail.com [209.246.26.45]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k9K8Wl0A076495 for <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org>; Fri, 20 Oct 2006 01:32:48 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from guenther+mtafilters@sendmail.com) Received: from [10.201.0.58] (adsl-64-58-1-252.mho.net [64.58.1.252] (may be forged)) (authenticated bits=0) by foon.sendmail.com (Switch-3.2.5/Switch-3.2.0) with ESMTP id k9K8WcFR016390 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 20 Oct 2006 01:32:41 -0700 X-DKIM: Sendmail DKIM Filter v0.5.1 foon.sendmail.com k9K8WcFR016390 DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/simple; d=sendmail.com; s=tls.dkim; t=1161333162; bh=DJc0sBTRt/sNkef//F4FGIrEYQ4=; h=X-DomainKeys: DomainKey-Signature:Date:From:X-X-Sender:To:cc:Subject:In-Reply-To: Message-ID:References:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=b9rRFumudFS8JR4m ZSuOnhRYzoFW8BZsVqB49zujmrS4UnruZ6W7+Y8snDtjqBlPJlrSC59a0h/pwKBMIlA EaFL7fLuhic6O/x5FLbKxOWXjbvhcmdUVgrL3cfpbTnX26/+gM92lVLXnq6ZLeSSj1T lNdDco93XAFqvrrZBMFr0= X-DomainKeys: Sendmail DomainKeys Filter v0.4.1 foon.sendmail.com k9K8WcFR016390 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; s=tls; d=sendmail.com; c=nofws; q=dns; h=date:from:x-x-sender:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:message-id: references:mime-version:content-type; b=eLTmUe1CSeiYlXDWmY5oYGCF9mZNz9ndbqWYDXbs2mH9wO6fvsqEN8c3MrWbg9RYo pys5ffMqfLu/TKs5Y9JjOXJfjcZtAWJC62f3VQqkNAlR/rUN0lceKfmx2xSr6huaHFJ j9hO/Qdyslf3biBVoJXZ1c2EmAF9inVSCzNGzCc= Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2006 02:32:37 -0600 From: Philip Guenther <guenther+mtafilters@sendmail.com> X-X-Sender: guenther@vanye.mho.net To: Kjetil Torgrim Homme <kjetilho@ifi.uio.no> cc: ietf-mta-filters@imc.org Subject: Re: Proposal for escaping on non-UTF-8 sequences in Sieve In-Reply-To: <1160097878.27906.128.camel@mattugur.ifi.uio.no> Message-ID: <Pine.BSO.4.64.0610200135410.11589@vanye.mho.net> References: <450DCEB9.2030403@isode.com> <20060918145149.GA11806@nostromo.freenet-ag.de> <450EB687.7000406@isode.com> <01M7C479AQ780008CX@mauve.mrochek.com> <20060918202050.GC12279@nostromo.freenet-ag.de> <Pine.BSO.4.64.0609181509400.7779@vanye.mho.net> <1159711450.13064.77.camel@honbori.ifi.uio.no> <1160097878.27906.128.camel@mattugur.ifi.uio.no> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-mta-filters/mail-archive/> List-ID: <ietf-mta-filters.imc.org> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-mta-filters-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> There are a number of issues that need to be clarified before the proposed extension will be ready for inclusion: Do implementations have to support encodings of NUL ala ${hex:0}? If so, that will be a barrier to this extension being broadly supported. (I think it should be a "MAY support".) Which comes first, encoding replacement or variable expansion? Or are they concurrent? Whatever the answer, the variables I-D will need to make that clear. (I think encoding replacement should come before variable expansion.) unicode-hex should be 1*6HEXDIG: the Unicode range goes up to 10FFFF The next rev of the base-spec includes this: Extensions MUST NOT change the behavior of the "require" control command. I believe that means that this extension can't be used in the capability argument to 'require', so there's at least one place where Unicode characters can't be encoded using ${unicode:...}. I'll note that while a script that uses this extension for all non-UTF8 octets may be displayable without munging, the result may still be incomprehensible if, for example, an 8bit ISO-2022-JP MIME part is included in a string. Indeed, such encoding will probably make it more difficult to display that MIME part readably: currently, if a user is viewing the script with raw ISO-2022-JP in it they can probably display that MIME part by overriding their browser's charset encoding for the page. Philip Guenther Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k9K75tNA066376; Fri, 20 Oct 2006 00:05:55 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k9K75td0066375; Fri, 20 Oct 2006 00:05:55 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mout0.freenet.de (mout0.freenet.de [194.97.50.131]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k9K75r6D066363 for <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org>; Fri, 20 Oct 2006 00:05:54 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from michael@freenet-ag.de) Received: from [194.97.50.138] (helo=mx0.freenet.de) by mout0.freenet.de with esmtpa (Exim 4.62) (envelope-from <michael@freenet-ag.de>) id 1GaoS0-0004Wc-BF for ietf-mta-filters@imc.org; Fri, 20 Oct 2006 09:05:52 +0200 Received: from nostromo.freenet-ag.de ([194.97.7.6]) by mx0.freenet.de with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.62 #12) id 1GaoS0-0006C3-7a for ietf-mta-filters@imc.org; Fri, 20 Oct 2006 09:05:52 +0200 Received: from michael by nostromo.freenet-ag.de with local (ID michael) (Exim 4.62 #12) id 1GaoRy-0005cX-Lt for ietf-mta-filters@imc.org; Fri, 20 Oct 2006 09:05:50 +0200 Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2006 09:05:50 +0200 From: Michael Haardt <michael@freenet-ag.de> To: ietf-mta-filters@imc.org Subject: Re: Proposal for escaping on non-UTF-8 sequences in Sieve Message-ID: <20061020070550.GA21577@nostromo.freenet-ag.de> References: <01M7C479AQ780008CX@mauve.mrochek.com> <20060918202050.GC12279@nostromo.freenet-ag.de> <Pine.BSO.4.64.0609181509400.7779@vanye.mho.net> <1159711450.13064.77.camel@honbori.ifi.uio.no> <1160097878.27906.128.camel@mattugur.ifi.uio.no> <452667CD.2080004@isode.com> <1160146633.11473.12.camel@havhest.ifi.uio.no> <45268BDD.3030309@isode.com> <1161193796.15774.99.camel@havhest.ifi.uio.no> <Pine.BSO.4.64.0610191729520.11589@vanye.mho.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSO.4.64.0610191729520.11589@vanye.mho.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6i Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-mta-filters/mail-archive/> List-ID: <ietf-mta-filters.imc.org> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-mta-filters-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> On Thu, Oct 19, 2006 at 06:28:42PM -0600, Philip Guenther wrote: > As for the name of the extension, I think it should be "encoded-character" > instead of "quoted-character": this is not a quoting scheme but rather an > encoding scheme. Or possibly "encoded-octet"? > Regarding the description of the language in section 2.1, how does the > following addition (based on text from Alexey) look: > > While this specification permits arbitrary octets to appear in > sieve scripts inside strings and comments, this has made it > difficult to robustly handle sieve scripts in user interfaces. > The "encoded-character" capability (section 2.4.2.4) provides an > alternative means of representing such octets in strings using > just US-ASCII characters. As such, the use of non-UTF-8 text in > scripts should be considered a deprecated feature that may be > abandoned. > > That would be inserted as the third paragraph in that section and given > additional indentation (ala the behaviors described in section 2.7.2). To me, it does not point out strong enough that new implementations shold not allow non-UTF-8 octet sequences AT ALL. How about: Sieve scripts SHOULD NOT use non-UTF-8 octet sequences. If non-UTF-8 octet sequences are required in strings, the "encoded-octet" capability (section 2.4.2.4) provides an alternative means of representing such octets in strings using just US-ASCII characters. It's not a MUST and backwards compatibility of specific implementations is certainly a very good reason to act against the SHOULD. Michael Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k9K6o8f1064762; Thu, 19 Oct 2006 23:50:08 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k9K6o8fI064761; Thu, 19 Oct 2006 23:50:08 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ns1.neustar.com (ns1.neustar.com [156.154.16.138]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k9K6o743064752 for <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org>; Thu, 19 Oct 2006 23:50:07 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from ietf@ietf.org) Received: from stiedprstage1.ietf.org (stiedprstage1.va.neustar.com [10.31.47.10]) by ns1.neustar.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED6AD26E65; Fri, 20 Oct 2006 06:50:01 +0000 (GMT) Received: from ietf by stiedprstage1.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1GaoCf-0004g0-R5; Fri, 20 Oct 2006 02:50:01 -0400 Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; Boundary="NextPart" Mime-Version: 1.0 To: i-d-announce@ietf.org Cc: ietf-mta-filters@imc.org From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Subject: I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-sieve-refuse-reject-04.txt Message-Id: <E1GaoCf-0004g0-R5@stiedprstage1.ietf.org> Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2006 02:50:01 -0400 Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-mta-filters/mail-archive/> List-ID: <ietf-mta-filters.imc.org> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-mta-filters-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> --NextPart A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Sieve Mail Filtering Language Working Group of the IETF. Title : The SIEVE mail filtering language - reject extension Author(s) : M. Elvey, A. Melnikov Filename : draft-ietf-sieve-refuse-reject-04.txt Pages : 0 Date : 2006-10-19 This memo updates the definition the SIEVE mail filtering language (RFC <<3028bis>>) "reject" extension, originally defined in RFC 3028. A Joe-job is a spam run forged to appear as though it came from an innocent party, who is then generally flooded by the bounces, Message Disposition Notifications (MDNs) and messages with complaints. The original Sieve "reject" action defined in RFC 3028 required use of MDNs for rejecting messages, thus contributing to the flood of Joe-job spam to victims of Joe-jobs. This document updates the definition of "reject" to require rejecting messages during the SMTP transaction (instead of accepting them and then sending MDNs back to the alleged sender) wherever possible, thereby reducing the problem. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-sieve-refuse-reject-04.txt To remove yourself from the I-D Announcement list, send a message to i-d-announce-request@ietf.org with the word unsubscribe in the body of the message. You can also visit https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/I-D-announce to change your subscription settings. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then "get draft-ietf-sieve-refuse-reject-04.txt". A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. Send a message to: mailserv@ietf.org. In the body type: "FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-sieve-refuse-reject-04.txt". NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility. To use this feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE" command. To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or a MIME-compliant mail reader. Different MIME-compliant mail readers exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on how to manipulate these messages. Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. --NextPart Content-Type: Multipart/Alternative; Boundary="OtherAccess" --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; access-type="mail-server"; server="mailserv@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2006-10-19210237.I-D@ietf.org> ENCODING mime FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-sieve-refuse-reject-04.txt --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; name="draft-ietf-sieve-refuse-reject-04.txt"; site="ftp.ietf.org"; access-type="anon-ftp"; directory="internet-drafts" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2006-10-19210237.I-D@ietf.org> --OtherAccess-- --NextPart-- Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k9K0SqwZ031575; Thu, 19 Oct 2006 17:28:52 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k9K0Sqb6031574; Thu, 19 Oct 2006 17:28:52 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp-out.sendmail.com (smtp-out.sendmail.com [209.246.26.45]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k9K0Sqq7031568 for <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org>; Thu, 19 Oct 2006 17:28:52 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from guenther+mtafilters@sendmail.com) Received: from [10.201.0.58] (adsl-64-58-1-252.mho.net [64.58.1.252] (may be forged)) (authenticated bits=0) by foon.sendmail.com (Switch-3.2.5/Switch-3.2.0) with ESMTP id k9K0Sgot024097 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 19 Oct 2006 17:28:45 -0700 X-DKIM: Sendmail DKIM Filter v0.5.1 foon.sendmail.com k9K0Sgot024097 DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/simple; d=sendmail.com; s=tls.dkim; t=1161304126; bh=EzTDzrbit8J1IAZ14VmPX1kMyV0=; h=X-DomainKeys: DomainKey-Signature:Date:From:X-X-Sender:To:cc:Subject:In-Reply-To: Message-ID:References:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=CCBkmujuXeN6M202 Fsho85pHT6FI4NrS03pxGW6Kb9Z4gOukjCkfcNL1fPONlYCYamR5jx3t1zXS7vLF+Bb 0o2kY8bVba/y4ZY6FSeWbOji8JJHEWBMk7blGrzKVWJU3UIOv7wJx+JpB5X+arv8NWu hrJToOxXy9w+1P+j5BBmY= X-DomainKeys: Sendmail DomainKeys Filter v0.4.1 foon.sendmail.com k9K0Sgot024097 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; s=tls; d=sendmail.com; c=nofws; q=dns; h=date:from:x-x-sender:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:message-id: references:mime-version:content-type; b=Z+eZoHVRdQXIPCh2dYkYgQn1tErOWTWiwcEA766gU8CHGv2/D/QvSbd/X0FLFVWKU K+3w9RgIGk/vSgVt6duXdopVmo3kxRbLKG/yPpWheBaZ2rpGKl93bTLsQquROFDDAUk DA+0zJTyE28pH5cxtORZNBCNMBOVguXfjhpjTBI= Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2006 18:28:42 -0600 From: Philip Guenther <guenther+mtafilters@sendmail.com> X-X-Sender: guenther@vanye.mho.net To: Kjetil Torgrim Homme <kjetilho@ifi.uio.no> cc: ietf-mta-filters@imc.org Subject: Re: Proposal for escaping on non-UTF-8 sequences in Sieve In-Reply-To: <1161193796.15774.99.camel@havhest.ifi.uio.no> Message-ID: <Pine.BSO.4.64.0610191729520.11589@vanye.mho.net> References: <450DCEB9.2030403@isode.com> <20060918145149.GA11806@nostromo.freenet-ag.de> <450EB687.7000406@isode.com> <01M7C479AQ780008CX@mauve.mrochek.com> <20060918202050.GC12279@nostromo.freenet-ag.de> <Pine.BSO.4.64.0609181509400.7779@vanye.mho.net> <1159711450.13064.77.camel@honbori.ifi.uio.no> <1160097878.27906.128.camel@mattugur.ifi.uio.no> <452667CD.2080004@isode.com> <1160146633.11473.12.camel@havhest.ifi.uio.no> <45268BDD.3030309@isode.com> <1161193796.15774.99.camel@havhest.ifi.uio.no> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-mta-filters/mail-archive/> List-ID: <ietf-mta-filters.imc.org> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-mta-filters-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> On Wed, 18 Oct 2006, Kjetil Torgrim Homme wrote: ... > we have three proposals here: > > $%<hex> I dislike this as too specialized. > ${hex:<hex>} > > and a slightly more nebulous "a more unique prefix", perhaps this > qualifies: > > $[hex:<hex>] > > that would be fine with me, in any case. I think these are both acceptable; I have a slight preference for ${} As for the name of the extension, I think it should be "encoded-character" instead of "quoted-character": this is not a quoting scheme but rather an encoding scheme. Regarding the description of the language in section 2.1, how does the following addition (based on text from Alexey) look: While this specification permits arbitrary octets to appear in sieve scripts inside strings and comments, this has made it difficult to robustly handle sieve scripts in user interfaces. The "encoded-character" capability (section 2.4.2.4) provides an alternative means of representing such octets in strings using just US-ASCII characters. As such, the use of non-UTF-8 text in scripts should be considered a deprecated feature that may be abandoned. That would be inserted as the third paragraph in that section and given additional indentation (ala the behaviors described in section 2.7.2). Philip Guenther Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k9JLhRX4018537; Thu, 19 Oct 2006 14:43:27 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k9JLhRXe018536; Thu, 19 Oct 2006 14:43:27 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mout0.freenet.de (mout0.freenet.de [194.97.50.131]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k9JLhPjK018530 for <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org>; Thu, 19 Oct 2006 14:43:26 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from michael@freenet-ag.de) Received: from [194.97.55.147] (helo=mx4.freenet.de) by mout0.freenet.de with esmtpa (Exim 4.62) (envelope-from <michael@freenet-ag.de>) id 1Gaffg-0002m2-91 for ietf-mta-filters@imc.org; Thu, 19 Oct 2006 23:43:24 +0200 Received: from nostromo.freenet-ag.de ([194.97.7.6]) by mx4.freenet.de with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.62 #12) id 1Gaffg-0005pl-5l for ietf-mta-filters@imc.org; Thu, 19 Oct 2006 23:43:24 +0200 Received: from michael by nostromo.freenet-ag.de with local (ID michael) (Exim 4.62 #12) id 1Gaffd-0005P7-Ix for ietf-mta-filters@imc.org; Thu, 19 Oct 2006 23:43:21 +0200 Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2006 23:43:21 +0200 To: ietf-mta-filters@imc.org Subject: Re: non-UTF-8 sequences in Sieve scripts References: <4509E6F8.7010602@isode.com> <20060918100643.GA10918@nostromo.freenet-ag.de> <6A481F5FAC62E7789D7C06C6@Cyrus-Daboo-G5.local> <20060918143303.GA11758@nostromo.freenet-ag.de> <EC5678116479F564886BB3BD@Cyrus-Daboo-G5.local> <1160094976.27906.90.camel@mattugur.ifi.uio.no> <4537CA49.3020804@isode.com> In-Reply-To: <4537CA49.3020804@isode.com> User-Agent: Heirloom mailx 12.1 6/15/06 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-Id: <E1Gaffd-0005P7-Ix@nostromo.freenet-ag.de> From: Michael Haardt <michael@freenet-ag.de> Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-mta-filters/mail-archive/> List-ID: <ietf-mta-filters.imc.org> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-mta-filters-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> > >[3028bis-09: 2.1. Form of the Language (§2)]: > >| With the exceptions of strings and comments, the language is limited > >| to US-ASCII characters. Strings and comments may contain octets > >| outside the US-ASCII range. Specifically, they will normally be in > >| UTF-8, as specified in [UTF-8]. NUL (US-ASCII 0) is never permitted > >| in scripts, while CR and LF can only appear as the CRLF line ending. > > > >[my suggestion]: > >| With the exceptions of strings and comments, the language is limited > >| to US-ASCII characters. Strings and comments are encoded in > >| UTF-8, as specified in [UTF-8]. NUL (US-ASCII 0) is never permitted > >| in scripts, while CR and LF can only appear as the CRLF line ending. That asks for no more than RFC 3028, it is just more detailed. IMHO, whoever thinks RFC 3028 allows non-UTF-8 should still think the same. Sounds good to me. > >[3028bis-09: 2.4.2. Strings (§6)]: > >| As message header data is converted to [UTF-8] for comparison (see > >| section 2.7.2), most strings will use the UTF-8 encoding. However, > >| implementations MUST accept all strings that match the grammar in > >| section 8. The ability to use non-UTF-8 encoded strings matches > >| existing practice and has proven to be useful both in tests for > >| invalid data and in arguments containing raw MIME parts for extension > >| actions that generate outgoing messages. > > > >[my suggestion]: > >| [strike paragraph 6 in its entirety] I think it is important to keep "Message header data is converted to [UTF-8] for comparison". Of course implementations must obey the grammar, no matter how it looks like, so that part seems unneeded. I thought -09 said that on headers, but I was wrong. But there's something else, while I am reading 2.4.2.2 (just nitpicking): s/synactically/syntactically/ Headers are a subset of strings. In the Internet Message Specification [IMAIL], each header line is allowed to have whitespace nearly anywhere in the line, including after the field name and before the subsequent colon. Extra spaces between the header name and the ":" in a header field are ignored. If you think it's really just nitpicking, just forget about my suggestion: Header field names are a subset of strings. The obsolete header field syntax from [IMAIL], section 4.5, must be implemented, matching a header with white space between the field name and the subsequent colon. But: Can a Sieve header contain trailing white space that is being ignored, too? Like "from "? Sorry I bring this up so late, never thought about it before. > I think the rough consensus on this issue around Montreal IETF was not > to break existing implementations (which accept arbitrary octets). > I believe the existing -09 text represents this rough consensus. That is correct, there was agreement not to word things that those implementations DO violate the standard, but also not to word things in a way that encourages to repeat their behaviour. > Personally, I think I would agree with your proposal 6 months after > 3028bis is published, when we try to move 3028bis RFC to Draft status > and if your octet encoding extension is deployed. Sounds good to me. Once there is a draft on that extension, I will certainly implement it in Exim. Michael Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k9JIuIZe002897; Thu, 19 Oct 2006 11:56:18 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k9JIuIGp002896; Thu, 19 Oct 2006 11:56:18 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rufus.isode.com (rufus.isode.com [62.3.217.251]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k9JIuGOU002884 for <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org>; Thu, 19 Oct 2006 11:56:17 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from alexey.melnikov@isode.com) Received: from [172.16.2.166] (shiny.isode.com [62.3.217.250]) by rufus.isode.com (submission channel) via TCP with ESMTPA id <RTfKTgAkUYjK@rufus.isode.com>; Thu, 19 Oct 2006 19:56:14 +0100 Message-ID: <4537CA49.3020804@isode.com> Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2006 19:56:09 +0100 From: Alexey Melnikov <alexey.melnikov@isode.com> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050915 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en To: Kjetil Torgrim Homme <kjetilho@ifi.uio.no> CC: ietf-mta-filters@imc.org Subject: Re: non-UTF-8 sequences in Sieve scripts References: <4509E6F8.7010602@isode.com> <20060918100643.GA10918@nostromo.freenet-ag.de> <6A481F5FAC62E7789D7C06C6@Cyrus-Daboo-G5.local> <20060918143303.GA11758@nostromo.freenet-ag.de> <EC5678116479F564886BB3BD@Cyrus-Daboo-G5.local> <1160094976.27906.90.camel@mattugur.ifi.uio.no> In-Reply-To: <1160094976.27906.90.camel@mattugur.ifi.uio.no> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; format="flowed" Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-mta-filters/mail-archive/> List-ID: <ietf-mta-filters.imc.org> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-mta-filters-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> Kjetil Torgrim Homme wrote: >okay, fine, we don't have to make 3028bis more explicit than 3028 about >disallowing arbitrary octets. but we should definitely not add explicit >text which allows it either! let's stick to the original wording, but >keep some of the clarifications from the draft: > >[3028bis-09: 2.1. Form of the Language (§2)]: >| With the exceptions of strings and comments, the language is limited >| to US-ASCII characters. Strings and comments may contain octets >| outside the US-ASCII range. Specifically, they will normally be in >| UTF-8, as specified in [UTF-8]. NUL (US-ASCII 0) is never permitted >| in scripts, while CR and LF can only appear as the CRLF line ending. > >[my suggestion]: >| With the exceptions of strings and comments, the language is limited >| to US-ASCII characters. Strings and comments are encoded in >| UTF-8, as specified in [UTF-8]. NUL (US-ASCII 0) is never permitted >| in scripts, while CR and LF can only appear as the CRLF line ending. > >[3028bis-09: 2.4.2. Strings (§6)]: >| As message header data is converted to [UTF-8] for comparison (see >| section 2.7.2), most strings will use the UTF-8 encoding. However, >| implementations MUST accept all strings that match the grammar in >| section 8. The ability to use non-UTF-8 encoded strings matches >| existing practice and has proven to be useful both in tests for >| invalid data and in arguments containing raw MIME parts for extension >| actions that generate outgoing messages. > >[my suggestion]: >| [strike paragraph 6 in its entirety] > >the text from 8.1 is unchanged in 3028bis-09, so this is all we need to >maintain status quo. we'll also keep the accurate UTF-8 definitions of >characters out of the ABNF, but may decide to change that later, in the >Standard revision of the document. > >I hope this proposal is agreeable to all concerned. > > I think the rough consensus on this issue around Montreal IETF was not to break existing implementations (which accept arbitrary octets). I believe the existing -09 text represents this rough consensus. If you disagree that this is the case, I would let you (as a chair) to have one more round of discussion of this issue on the mailing list. The discussion must end by the Sieve meeting at San Diego IETF (November 6th). Personally, I think I would agree with your proposal 6 months after 3028bis is published, when we try to move 3028bis RFC to Draft status and if your octet encoding extension is deployed. Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k9JELx4U071993; Thu, 19 Oct 2006 07:21:59 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k9JELxjd071992; Thu, 19 Oct 2006 07:21:59 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail.rockliffe.com (mail.rockliffe.com [147.208.128.10]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k9JELwwH071976 for <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org>; Thu, 19 Oct 2006 07:21:58 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from Nigel.Swinson@rockliffe.com) X-Spam-Score-scoring_explanation: X-Spam-Score-spf_status: X-Spam-Score-Spamcatcher1: 30f3609119268c73fe48372614b125f5 X-Spam-Score-Summary: 2,0,0,8e736b7c9d990b95,43cc87f922f1c253,nigel.swinson@rockliffe.com,,RULES_HIT:355:379:539:540:541:542:543:567:599:601:973:988:989:1155:1156:1261:1277:1311:1313:1314:1345:1437:1513:1515:1516:1518:1521:1534:1537:1566:1587:1593:1594:1711:1714:1730:1747:1766:1792:2073:2075:2078:2198:2199:2393:2559:2562:2828:3027:3865:3866:3867:3872:3874:4470,0,RBL:none,CacheIP:none,Bayesian:0.5,0.5,0.5,Netcheck:none,DomainCache:0,MSF:not bulk,SPF:,MSBL:none,DNSBL:none X-Spam-Score-rbl_summary: none X-Spam-Score-Phishing_status: no X-Spam-Score-Countries: X-Spam-Score-Charsets: iso-8859-1 X-Spam-Score: 1 Received: from nigelhome (unverified [10.42.44.151]) by mail.rockliffe.com (Rockliffe SMTPRA 7.0.3) with ESMTP id <B0001804037@mail.rockliffe.com> for <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org>; Thu, 19 Oct 2006 07:21:53 -0700 Message-ID: <005d01c6f38a$11016ba0$972c2a0a@nigelhome> From: "Nigel Swinson" <Nigel.Swinson@rockliffe.com> To: <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org> References: <450EB687.7000406@isode.com> <01M7C479AQ780008CX@mauve.mrochek.com> <20060918202050.GC12279@nostromo.freenet-ag.de> <Pine.BSO.4.64.0609181509400.7779@vanye.mho.net> <1159711450.13064.77.camel@honbori.ifi.uio.no> <1160097878.27906.128.camel@mattugur.ifi.uio.no> <452667CD.2080004@isode.com> <1160146633.11473.12.camel@havhest.ifi.uio.no> <45268BDD.3030309@isode.com> <1161193796.15774.99.camel@havhest.ifi.uio.no> <20061019063609.GB18182@nostromo.freenet-ag.de> <1161262180.26871.12.camel@havhest.ifi.uio.no> <E1GaXkl-00057T-VX@nostromo.freenet-ag.de> Subject: Re: Proposal for escaping on non-UTF-8 sequences in Sieve Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2006 15:22:52 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1807 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1807 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by balder-227.proper.com id k9JELxwH071987 Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-mta-filters/mail-archive/> List-ID: <ietf-mta-filters.imc.org> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-mta-filters-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> > I like ${...}, because it specifies the borders of "magic inside". > All the magic we currently have are variables, but that does not mean > things have to stay that way. Me too. :o) I think $[ or $( just throw things more open to error, forgetting which braket to use :o/ Nigel Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k9JDGJtu064132; Thu, 19 Oct 2006 06:16:19 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k9JDGItv064131; Thu, 19 Oct 2006 06:16:18 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mout1.freenet.de (mout1.freenet.de [194.97.50.132]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k9JDGHxn064125 for <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org>; Thu, 19 Oct 2006 06:16:18 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from michael@freenet-ag.de) Received: from [194.97.50.138] (helo=mx0.freenet.de) by mout1.freenet.de with esmtpa (Exim 4.62) (envelope-from <michael@freenet-ag.de>) id 1GaXkt-0002uk-Qq for ietf-mta-filters@imc.org; Thu, 19 Oct 2006 15:16:15 +0200 Received: from nostromo.freenet-ag.de ([194.97.7.6]) by mx0.freenet.de with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.62 #12) id 1GaXkt-0001ym-P6 for ietf-mta-filters@imc.org; Thu, 19 Oct 2006 15:16:15 +0200 Received: from michael by nostromo.freenet-ag.de with local (ID michael) (Exim 4.62 #12) id 1GaXkl-00057T-VX for ietf-mta-filters@imc.org; Thu, 19 Oct 2006 15:16:07 +0200 Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2006 15:16:07 +0200 To: ietf-mta-filters@imc.org Subject: Re: Proposal for escaping on non-UTF-8 sequences in Sieve References: <450EB687.7000406@isode.com> <01M7C479AQ780008CX@mauve.mrochek.com> <20060918202050.GC12279@nostromo.freenet-ag.de> <Pine.BSO.4.64.0609181509400.7779@vanye.mho.net> <1159711450.13064.77.camel@honbori.ifi.uio.no> <1160097878.27906.128.camel@mattugur.ifi.uio.no> <452667CD.2080004@isode.com> <1160146633.11473.12.camel@havhest.ifi.uio.no> <45268BDD.3030309@isode.com> <1161193796.15774.99.camel@havhest.ifi.uio.no> <20061019063609.GB18182@nostromo.freenet-ag.de> <1161262180.26871.12.camel@havhest.ifi.uio.no> In-Reply-To: <1161262180.26871.12.camel@havhest.ifi.uio.no> User-Agent: Heirloom mailx 12.1 6/15/06 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <E1GaXkl-00057T-VX@nostromo.freenet-ag.de> From: Michael Haardt <michael@freenet-ag.de> Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-mta-filters/mail-archive/> List-ID: <ietf-mta-filters.imc.org> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-mta-filters-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> > > I like ${hex:<hex>}, because it looks like a function and we can use the > > same syntax for other string expansions, too. > > I think it only looks like a function to you because you're used to > exim.conf :-) if you know of other languages where functions looks like > this, I'm interested in hearing about it. Yes and no. :) Yes: It IS familar, because I use Exim, and I know of no other language using that notation. No: Seen from an abstract point of view, a variable and a function call differ only in some syntactic element that specifies arguments, because both deliver a rhs value (assuming strict evaluation). That's why I like to keep function calls very close to variables. If you dislike the colon, I don't mind exchanging that against some other token, as long as it is not in the follow-set of the variable identifier in the variables extension. I like ${...}, because it specifies the borders of "magic inside". All the magic we currently have are variables, but that does not mean things have to stay that way. Michael Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k9JCntjN061757; Thu, 19 Oct 2006 05:49:55 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k9JCntO3061756; Thu, 19 Oct 2006 05:49:55 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from pat.uio.no (IDENT:7411@pat.uio.no [129.240.10.4]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k9JCnrjq061748 for <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org>; Thu, 19 Oct 2006 05:49:54 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from kjetilho@ifi.uio.no) Received: from mail-mx6.uio.no ([129.240.10.47]) by pat.uio.no with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GaXLH-0006mP-OO; Thu, 19 Oct 2006 14:49:47 +0200 Received: from havhest.ifi.uio.no ([129.240.68.231]) by mail-mx6.uio.no with esmtpsa (TLSv1:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 4.43) id 1GaXLD-0002nJ-4p; Thu, 19 Oct 2006 14:49:43 +0200 Subject: Re: Proposal for escaping on non-UTF-8 sequences in Sieve From: Kjetil Torgrim Homme <kjetilho@ifi.uio.no> To: Michael Haardt <michael@freenet-ag.de> Cc: ietf-mta-filters@imc.org In-Reply-To: <20061019063609.GB18182@nostromo.freenet-ag.de> References: <450EB687.7000406@isode.com> <01M7C479AQ780008CX@mauve.mrochek.com> <20060918202050.GC12279@nostromo.freenet-ag.de> <Pine.BSO.4.64.0609181509400.7779@vanye.mho.net> <1159711450.13064.77.camel@honbori.ifi.uio.no> <1160097878.27906.128.camel@mattugur.ifi.uio.no> <452667CD.2080004@isode.com> <1160146633.11473.12.camel@havhest.ifi.uio.no> <45268BDD.3030309@isode.com> <1161193796.15774.99.camel@havhest.ifi.uio.no> <20061019063609.GB18182@nostromo.freenet-ag.de> Content-Type: text/plain Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2006 14:49:38 +0200 Message-Id: <1161262180.26871.12.camel@havhest.ifi.uio.no> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UiO-Spam-info: not spam, SpamAssassin (score=-4.992, required 12, autolearn=disabled, AWL 0.01, UIO_MAIL_IS_INTERNAL -5.00) Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-mta-filters/mail-archive/> List-ID: <ietf-mta-filters.imc.org> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-mta-filters-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> On Thu, 2006-10-19 at 08:36 +0200, Michael Haardt wrote: > On Wed, Oct 18, 2006 at 07:49:55PM +0200, Kjetil Torgrim Homme wrote: > > we have three proposals here: > > > > $%<hex> > > ${hex:<hex>} > > > > and a slightly more nebulous "a more unique prefix", perhaps this > > qualifies: > > > > $[hex:<hex>] > > > > that would be fine with me, in any case. > > I like ${hex:<hex>}, because it looks like a function and we can use the > same syntax for other string expansions, too. I think it only looks like a function to you because you're used to exim.conf :-) if you know of other languages where functions looks like this, I'm interested in hearing about it. if we want a syntax well known from other languages, we could do $(hex <hex> <hex>) this has a strong similarity to POSIX shell. which of ${, $[ or $( we use is not important to me. -- Kjetil T. Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k9J6aFsN020499; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 23:36:15 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k9J6aFhJ020498; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 23:36:15 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mout2.freenet.de (mout2.freenet.de [194.97.50.155]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k9J6aDPh020479 for <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org>; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 23:36:14 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from michael@freenet-ag.de) Received: from [194.97.55.190] (helo=mx6.freenet.de) by mout2.freenet.de with esmtpa (Exim 4.62) (envelope-from <michael@freenet-ag.de>) id 1GaRVk-0001kr-OG for ietf-mta-filters@imc.org; Thu, 19 Oct 2006 08:36:12 +0200 Received: from nostromo.freenet-ag.de ([194.97.7.6]) by mx6.freenet.de with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.62 #12) id 1GaRVk-00038h-MO for ietf-mta-filters@imc.org; Thu, 19 Oct 2006 08:36:12 +0200 Received: from michael by nostromo.freenet-ag.de with local (ID michael) (Exim 4.62 #12) id 1GaRVh-0004jq-Uj for ietf-mta-filters@imc.org; Thu, 19 Oct 2006 08:36:09 +0200 Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2006 08:36:09 +0200 From: Michael Haardt <michael@freenet-ag.de> To: ietf-mta-filters@imc.org Subject: Re: Proposal for escaping on non-UTF-8 sequences in Sieve Message-ID: <20061019063609.GB18182@nostromo.freenet-ag.de> References: <450EB687.7000406@isode.com> <01M7C479AQ780008CX@mauve.mrochek.com> <20060918202050.GC12279@nostromo.freenet-ag.de> <Pine.BSO.4.64.0609181509400.7779@vanye.mho.net> <1159711450.13064.77.camel@honbori.ifi.uio.no> <1160097878.27906.128.camel@mattugur.ifi.uio.no> <452667CD.2080004@isode.com> <1160146633.11473.12.camel@havhest.ifi.uio.no> <45268BDD.3030309@isode.com> <1161193796.15774.99.camel@havhest.ifi.uio.no> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <1161193796.15774.99.camel@havhest.ifi.uio.no> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6i Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-mta-filters/mail-archive/> List-ID: <ietf-mta-filters.imc.org> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-mta-filters-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> On Wed, Oct 18, 2006 at 07:49:55PM +0200, Kjetil Torgrim Homme wrote: > we have three proposals here: > > $%<hex> > ${hex:<hex>} > > and a slightly more nebulous "a more unique prefix", perhaps this > qualifies: > > $[hex:<hex>] > > that would be fine with me, in any case. I like ${hex:<hex>}, because it looks like a function and we can use the same syntax for other string expansions, too. > > >I want to note that a syntax mix-up can be flagged at upload time, so I > > >don't think it's a big problem in practice. > > this is not entirely correct, a typo like ${hex.ff} can only be flagged > if "variables" is in use, otherwise it will be used verbatim. This particular typo will indeed be used verbatim, whereas ${hex:fg} can be recognised. Michael Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k9IJoBU8064301; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 12:50:11 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k9IJoBHO064300; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 12:50:11 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ns1.neustar.com (ns1.neustar.com [156.154.16.138]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k9IJo8Ug064259 for <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org>; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 12:50:11 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from ietf@ietf.org) Received: from stiedprstage1.ietf.org (stiedprstage1.va.neustar.com [10.31.47.10]) by ns1.neustar.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D0E426E59; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 19:50:03 +0000 (GMT) Received: from ietf by stiedprstage1.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1GaHQR-0001VH-6w; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 15:50:03 -0400 Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; Boundary="NextPart" Mime-Version: 1.0 To: i-d-announce@ietf.org Cc: ietf-mta-filters@imc.org From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Subject: I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-sieve-notify-mailto-01.txt Message-Id: <E1GaHQR-0001VH-6w@stiedprstage1.ietf.org> Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2006 15:50:03 -0400 Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-mta-filters/mail-archive/> List-ID: <ietf-mta-filters.imc.org> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-mta-filters-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> --NextPart A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Sieve Mail Filtering Language Working Group of the IETF. Title : Sieve Notification Mechanism: mailto Author(s) : B. Leiba, M. Haardt Filename : draft-ietf-sieve-notify-mailto-01.txt Pages : 14 Date : 2006-10-18 This document describes a profile of the Sieve extension for notifications, to allow notifications to be sent by electronic mail. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-sieve-notify-mailto-01.txt To remove yourself from the I-D Announcement list, send a message to i-d-announce-request@ietf.org with the word unsubscribe in the body of the message. You can also visit https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/I-D-announce to change your subscription settings. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then "get draft-ietf-sieve-notify-mailto-01.txt". A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. Send a message to: mailserv@ietf.org. In the body type: "FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-sieve-notify-mailto-01.txt". NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility. To use this feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE" command. To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or a MIME-compliant mail reader. Different MIME-compliant mail readers exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on how to manipulate these messages. Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. --NextPart Content-Type: Multipart/Alternative; Boundary="OtherAccess" --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; access-type="mail-server"; server="mailserv@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2006-10-18145856.I-D@ietf.org> ENCODING mime FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-sieve-notify-mailto-01.txt --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; name="draft-ietf-sieve-notify-mailto-01.txt"; site="ftp.ietf.org"; access-type="anon-ftp"; directory="internet-drafts" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2006-10-18145856.I-D@ietf.org> --OtherAccess-- --NextPart-- Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k9IHt4s3054992; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 10:55:04 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k9IHt4AZ054991; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 10:55:04 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rufus.isode.com (rufus.isode.com [62.3.217.251]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k9IHt2iE054985 for <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org>; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 10:55:03 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from alexey.melnikov@isode.com) Received: from [172.16.2.119] (shiny.isode.com [62.3.217.250]) by rufus.isode.com (submission channel) via TCP with ESMTPA id <RTZqdQAkUSfA@rufus.isode.com>; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 18:55:01 +0100 Message-ID: <45366A51.1010008@isode.com> Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2006 18:54:25 +0100 From: Alexey Melnikov <alexey.melnikov@isode.com> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050915 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Kjetil Torgrim Homme <kjetilho@ifi.uio.no> CC: ietf-mta-filters@imc.org Subject: Re: Proposal for escaping on non-UTF-8 sequences in Sieve References: <450DCEB9.2030403@isode.com> <20060918145149.GA11806@nostromo.freenet-ag.de> <450EB687.7000406@isode.com> <01M7C479AQ780008CX@mauve.mrochek.com> <20060918202050.GC12279@nostromo.freenet-ag.de> <Pine.BSO.4.64.0609181509400.7779@vanye.mho.net> <1159711450.13064.77.camel@honbori.ifi.uio.no> <1160097878.27906.128.camel@mattugur.ifi.uio.no> <452667CD.2080004@isode.com> <1160146633.11473.12.camel@havhest.ifi.uio.no> <45268BDD.3030309@isode.com> <1161193796.15774.99.camel@havhest.ifi.uio.no> In-Reply-To: <1161193796.15774.99.camel@havhest.ifi.uio.no> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-mta-filters/mail-archive/> List-ID: <ietf-mta-filters.imc.org> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-mta-filters-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> Kjetil Torgrim Homme wrote: >On Fri, 2006-10-06 at 18:01 +0100, Alexey Melnikov wrote: > > >>Kjetil Torgrim Homme wrote: >> >> >>>On Fri, 2006-10-06 at 15:27 +0100, Alexey Melnikov wrote: >>> >>> >>>>I would prefer if we pick a more unique prefix. Something starting with >>>>'$' but not followed by '{' would be great. However if others feel >>>>strongly in favor of your variant, that would be fine too. Apart from >>>>that your proposal is fine with me. >>>> >>>> >>>glad to hear that. yes, the resemblance to variables syntax is a mixed >>>blessing. >>> >>>pro: it's easier to recognise magic sequences in the string. >>>con: it's easier to mix up the two syntaxes. >>> >>> >>I think cons. outweigh pros. in this case. Somebody can forget to use >>':' after hex, etc. >> >> >we have three proposals here: > > $%<hex> > ${hex:<hex>} > >and a slightly more nebulous "a more unique prefix", perhaps this >qualifies: > > $[hex:<hex>] > >that would be fine with me, in any case. > > I like the last one, where <hex> can be a sequence of space separated hex pairs. >>>I want to note that a syntax mix-up can be flagged at upload time, so I >>>don't think it's a big problem in practice. >>> >>> > >this is not entirely correct, a typo like ${hex.ff} can only be flagged >if "variables" is in use, otherwise it will be used verbatim. > > >>>this was a bit lazy editting on my part. I made the argument for the >>>reinstating of status quo in a different thread, so please ignore the >>>removal here. >>> >>> >>So I will argue in another thread ;-). >> >> > >you haven't done so yet :-) > No, I haven't. Sorry. I will post a message on this shortly. >it may have been lost in the long thread, >I'll repost my suggestion in a new thread. > > No need. Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k9IHo8lf054659; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 10:50:08 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k9IHo8Sw054658; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 10:50:08 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from pat.uio.no (IDENT:7411@pat.uio.no [129.240.10.4]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k9IHo7Fa054646 for <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org>; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 10:50:08 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from kjetilho@ifi.uio.no) Received: from mail-mx3.uio.no ([129.240.10.44]) by pat.uio.no with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GaFYH-0004VU-HM; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 19:50:01 +0200 Received: from havhest.ifi.uio.no ([129.240.68.231]) by mail-mx3.uio.no with esmtpsa (TLSv1:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 4.43) id 1GaFYC-0006NN-Dl; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 19:49:56 +0200 Subject: Re: Proposal for escaping on non-UTF-8 sequences in Sieve From: Kjetil Torgrim Homme <kjetilho@ifi.uio.no> To: Alexey Melnikov <alexey.melnikov@isode.com> Cc: ietf-mta-filters@imc.org In-Reply-To: <45268BDD.3030309@isode.com> References: <450DCEB9.2030403@isode.com> <20060918145149.GA11806@nostromo.freenet-ag.de> <450EB687.7000406@isode.com> <01M7C479AQ780008CX@mauve.mrochek.com> <20060918202050.GC12279@nostromo.freenet-ag.de> <Pine.BSO.4.64.0609181509400.7779@vanye.mho.net> <1159711450.13064.77.camel@honbori.ifi.uio.no> <1160097878.27906.128.camel@mattugur.ifi.uio.no> <452667CD.2080004@isode.com> <1160146633.11473.12.camel@havhest.ifi.uio.no> <45268BDD.3030309@isode.com> Content-Type: text/plain Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2006 19:49:55 +0200 Message-Id: <1161193796.15774.99.camel@havhest.ifi.uio.no> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UiO-Spam-info: not spam, SpamAssassin (score=-4.959, required 12, autolearn=disabled, AWL 0.04, UIO_MAIL_IS_INTERNAL -5.00) Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-mta-filters/mail-archive/> List-ID: <ietf-mta-filters.imc.org> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-mta-filters-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> On Fri, 2006-10-06 at 18:01 +0100, Alexey Melnikov wrote: > Kjetil Torgrim Homme wrote: > >On Fri, 2006-10-06 at 15:27 +0100, Alexey Melnikov wrote: > >>I would prefer if we pick a more unique prefix. Something starting with > >>'$' but not followed by '{' would be great. However if others feel > >>strongly in favor of your variant, that would be fine too. Apart from > >>that your proposal is fine with me. > > > >glad to hear that. yes, the resemblance to variables syntax is a mixed > >blessing. > > > >pro: it's easier to recognise magic sequences in the string. > >con: it's easier to mix up the two syntaxes. > > I think cons. outweigh pros. in this case. Somebody can forget to use > ':' after hex, etc. we have three proposals here: $%<hex> ${hex:<hex>} and a slightly more nebulous "a more unique prefix", perhaps this qualifies: $[hex:<hex>] that would be fine with me, in any case. > >I want to note that a syntax mix-up can be flagged at upload time, so I > >don't think it's a big problem in practice. this is not entirely correct, a typo like ${hex.ff} can only be flagged if "variables" is in use, otherwise it will be used verbatim. > >this was a bit lazy editting on my part. I made the argument for the > >reinstating of status quo in a different thread, so please ignore the > >removal here. > > So I will argue in another thread ;-). you haven't done so yet :-) it may have been lost in the long thread, I'll repost my suggestion in a new thread. -- Kjetil T. Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k9IGxVDJ050626; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 09:59:31 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k9IGxV19050625; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 09:59:31 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rufus.isode.com (rufus.isode.com [62.3.217.251]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k9IGxU7S050617 for <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org>; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 09:59:31 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from alexey.melnikov@isode.com) Received: from [172.16.2.119] (shiny.isode.com [62.3.217.250]) by rufus.isode.com (submission channel) via TCP with ESMTPA id <RTZdcAAkUVCi@rufus.isode.com>; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 17:59:28 +0100 Message-ID: <45365D4F.6040306@isode.com> Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2006 17:58:55 +0100 From: Alexey Melnikov <alexey.melnikov@isode.com> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050915 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Kjetil Torgrim Homme <kjetilho@ifi.uio.no> CC: iesg@ietf.org, ietf-mta-filters@imc.org Subject: Re: Last Call: 'Sieve: An Email Filtering Language' to Proposed Standard (draft-ietf-sieve-3028bis) References: <E1GaEH6-0007ZW-DZ@stiedprstage1.ietf.org> <1161190004.15774.80.camel@havhest.ifi.uio.no> In-Reply-To: <1161190004.15774.80.camel@havhest.ifi.uio.no> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-mta-filters/mail-archive/> List-ID: <ietf-mta-filters.imc.org> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-mta-filters-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> Kjetil Torgrim Homme wrote: >On Wed, 2006-10-18 at 12:28 -0400, The IESG wrote: > > >>The IESG has received a request from the Sieve Mail Filtering Language >>WG to consider the following document: >> >>- 'Sieve: An Email Filtering Language ' >> <draft-ietf-sieve-3028bis-09.txt> as a Proposed Standard >> >>The IESG plans to make a decision in the next few weeks, and solicits >>final comments on this action. Please send any comments to the >>iesg@ietf.org or ietf@ietf.org mailing lists by 2006-11-01. >> >> >ugh. > >I think the Sieve WG should have been notified prior to sending it to >the IESG for IETF wide last call. > >we still don't have closure on non-ASCII characters. there have been >several suggestions for edits posted since -09 was submitted, and it >should NOT be accepted in its current form without further discussion. > > Yes, I told Lisa that this is the case. -09 is not going to IESG, -10 or later will. Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k9IGkwms049137; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 09:46:58 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k9IGkwUa049136; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 09:46:58 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from pat.uio.no (IDENT:7411@pat.uio.no [129.240.10.4]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k9IGku2G049126 for <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org>; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 09:46:57 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from kjetilho@ifi.uio.no) Received: from mail-mx1.uio.no ([129.240.10.29]) by pat.uio.no with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GaEZ8-00027i-76; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 18:46:50 +0200 Received: from havhest.ifi.uio.no ([129.240.68.231]) by mail-mx1.uio.no with esmtpsa (TLSv1:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 4.43) id 1GaEZ3-00053o-08; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 18:46:45 +0200 Subject: Re: Last Call: 'Sieve: An Email Filtering Language' to Proposed Standard (draft-ietf-sieve-3028bis) From: Kjetil Torgrim Homme <kjetilho@ifi.uio.no> To: iesg@ietf.org Cc: ietf-mta-filters@imc.org In-Reply-To: <E1GaEH6-0007ZW-DZ@stiedprstage1.ietf.org> References: <E1GaEH6-0007ZW-DZ@stiedprstage1.ietf.org> Content-Type: text/plain Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2006 18:46:44 +0200 Message-Id: <1161190004.15774.80.camel@havhest.ifi.uio.no> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UiO-Spam-info: not spam, SpamAssassin (score=-4.992, required 12, autolearn=disabled, AWL 0.01, UIO_MAIL_IS_INTERNAL -5.00) Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-mta-filters/mail-archive/> List-ID: <ietf-mta-filters.imc.org> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-mta-filters-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> On Wed, 2006-10-18 at 12:28 -0400, The IESG wrote: > The IESG has received a request from the Sieve Mail Filtering Language > WG to consider the following document: > > - 'Sieve: An Email Filtering Language ' > <draft-ietf-sieve-3028bis-09.txt> as a Proposed Standard > > The IESG plans to make a decision in the next few weeks, and solicits > final comments on this action. Please send any comments to the > iesg@ietf.org or ietf@ietf.org mailing lists by 2006-11-01. ugh. I think the Sieve WG should have been notified prior to sending it to the IESG for IETF wide last call. we still don't have closure on non-ASCII characters. there have been several suggestions for edits posted since -09 was submitted, and it should NOT be accepted in its current form without further discussion. -- Kjetil T. Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k9IGSIYW047715; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 09:28:18 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k9IGSIs1047714; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 09:28:18 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ns1.neustar.com (ns1.neustar.com [156.154.16.138]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k9IGSH2t047705 for <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org>; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 09:28:18 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from ietf@ietf.org) Received: from stiedprstage1.ietf.org (stiedprstage1.va.neustar.com [10.31.47.10]) by ns1.neustar.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 801B226E3B; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 16:28:12 +0000 (GMT) Received: from ietf by stiedprstage1.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1GaEH6-0007ZW-DZ; Wed, 18 Oct 2006 12:28:12 -0400 X-test-idtracker: no To: IETF-Announce <ietf-announce@ietf.org> From: The IESG <iesg-secretary@ietf.org> Subject: Last Call: 'Sieve: An Email Filtering Language' to Proposed Standard (draft-ietf-sieve-3028bis) Reply-To: iesg@ietf.org Cc: <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org> Message-Id: <E1GaEH6-0007ZW-DZ@stiedprstage1.ietf.org> Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2006 12:28:12 -0400 Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-mta-filters/mail-archive/> List-ID: <ietf-mta-filters.imc.org> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-mta-filters-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> The IESG has received a request from the Sieve Mail Filtering Language WG to consider the following document: - 'Sieve: An Email Filtering Language ' <draft-ietf-sieve-3028bis-09.txt> as a Proposed Standard The IESG plans to make a decision in the next few weeks, and solicits final comments on this action. Please send any comments to the iesg@ietf.org or ietf@ietf.org mailing lists by 2006-11-01. The file can be obtained via http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-sieve-3028bis-09.txt Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k9GBFGMB053706; Mon, 16 Oct 2006 04:15:16 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k9GBFGxM053705; Mon, 16 Oct 2006 04:15:16 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rufus.isode.com (rufus.isode.com [62.3.217.251]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k9GBFEob053696 for <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org>; Mon, 16 Oct 2006 04:15:15 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from alexey.melnikov@isode.com) Received: from [172.16.2.190] (shiny.isode.com [62.3.217.250]) by rufus.isode.com (submission channel) via TCP with ESMTPA id <RTNpwAAkUWLH@rufus.isode.com>; Mon, 16 Oct 2006 12:15:12 +0100 Message-ID: <453369B3.9040005@isode.com> Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2006 12:14:59 +0100 From: Alexey Melnikov <alexey.melnikov@isode.com> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050915 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: MTA filtering mailing list <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org> Subject: Sieve meeting at San Diego IETF Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-mta-filters/mail-archive/> List-ID: <ietf-mta-filters.imc.org> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-mta-filters-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> Hi folks, We have a Sieve session allocated during San Diego IETF: SIEVE Session: 2 hours Monday, November 6, Afternoon Session II 1520-1720 I would like to ask authors of remaining WG documents to report on progress directly to me and Cyrus. Remember that October 23rd (next Monday) is the submission deadline. Now is also a good time to talk about the meeting agenda. Suggestions? Alexey, Sieve co-chair. Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k96IqnhW083573; Fri, 6 Oct 2006 11:52:49 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k96IqnEk083572; Fri, 6 Oct 2006 11:52:49 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rufus.isode.com (rufus.isode.com [62.3.217.251]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k96IqmTi083565 for <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org>; Fri, 6 Oct 2006 11:52:49 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from alexey.melnikov@isode.com) Received: from [172.16.2.177] (shiny.isode.com [62.3.217.250]) by rufus.isode.com (submission channel) via TCP with ESMTPA id <RSal=wBAxhLw@rufus.isode.com>; Fri, 6 Oct 2006 19:52:47 +0100 Message-ID: <4526A5F6.7000103@isode.com> Date: Fri, 06 Oct 2006 19:52:38 +0100 From: Alexey Melnikov <alexey.melnikov@isode.com> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050915 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ned Freed <ned.freed@mrochek.com> CC: Kjetil Torgrim Homme <kjetilho@ifi.uio.no>, ietf-mta-filters@imc.org Subject: Re: the part argument to "date" References: <1152660487.16652.157.camel@mattugur.ifi.uio.no> <01M7YU8S4O8Y0008CX@mauve.mrochek.com> <1160039391.25238.48.camel@mattugur.ifi.uio.no> <01M81CT539DI0008CX@mauve.mrochek.com> In-Reply-To: <01M81CT539DI0008CX@mauve.mrochek.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-mta-filters/mail-archive/> List-ID: <ietf-mta-filters.imc.org> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-mta-filters-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> Ned Freed wrote: >>On Wed, 2006-10-04 at 16:08 -0700, Ned Freed wrote: >> >> >>>The main reason I chose to make this a positional argument is that tagged >>>arguments are properly optional and I don't think the type of date test should >>>be allowed to be optional. This is quite unlike the sitations with other tagged >>>arguments - they have sensible defaults. >>> >>> >>my suggested default is "iso8601" which seems useful to me, at least for >>a relational comparator. but if you don't like it, by all means make >>PART required. (I should've called it DATE-PART, btw.) >> >> I prefer to be explicit about the part type. >I like having a required tagged argument (AFAIK that would be a first in sieve) >even less than I like giving part a default value. > >In any case, unless someone else chimes in with an opinion on this I'm sticking >with a positional argument. > > I don't feel strongly one way or another. Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k96IZo4M081838; Fri, 6 Oct 2006 11:35:50 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k96IZnCa081837; Fri, 6 Oct 2006 11:35:49 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mauve.mrochek.com (206.117.180.234.brandx.net [206.117.180.234] (may be forged)) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k96IZnID081830 for <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org>; Fri, 6 Oct 2006 11:35:49 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from ned.freed@mrochek.com) Received: from dkim-sign.mauve.mrochek.com by mauve.mrochek.com (PMDF V6.1-1 #35243) id <01M81CZLDUU800UYX6@mauve.mrochek.com> for ietf-mta-filters@imc.org; Fri, 6 Oct 2006 11:35:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mauve.mrochek.com by mauve.mrochek.com (PMDF V6.1-1 #35243) id <01M810RRW4DS0008CX@mauve.mrochek.com>; Fri, 06 Oct 2006 11:35:32 -0700 (PDT) Cc: Ned Freed <ned.freed@mrochek.com>, Kjetil Torgrim Homme <kjetilho@ifi.uio.no>, ietf-mta-filters@imc.org To: Philip Guenther <guenther+mtafilters@sendmail.com> Message-id: <01M81CZH3LH00008CX@mauve.mrochek.com> Date: Fri, 06 Oct 2006 11:34:17 -0700 (PDT) From: Ned Freed <ned.freed@mrochek.com> Subject: Re: the part argument to "date" In-reply-to: "Your message dated Wed, 04 Oct 2006 18:22:58 -0600" <Pine.BSO.4.64.0610041818250.309@vanye.mho.net> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; format=flowed References: <1152660487.16652.157.camel@mattugur.ifi.uio.no> <01M7YU8S4O8Y0008CX@mauve.mrochek.com> <Pine.BSO.4.64.0610041818250.309@vanye.mho.net> Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-mta-filters/mail-archive/> List-ID: <ietf-mta-filters.imc.org> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-mta-filters-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> > On Wed, 4 Oct 2006, Ned Freed wrote: > ... > >> I don't quite like the part argument to "date", since the possible > >> values are listed explicitly. making each of them a tagged argument is > >> easier to express in the grammar, and it avoids the problem of > >> "${format}" which can fail during run-time. outline of suggested > >> change: > > > > The main reason I chose to make this a positional argument is that > > tagged arguments are properly optional and I don't think the type of > > date test should be allowed to be optional. > Tagged arguments != Optional arguments, despite looking the same. C.f. > section 2.6 of RFC 3028. > > This is quite unlike the sitations with other tagged arguments - they > > have sensible defaults. > It's like the :over/:user arguments to the 'size' test...which are tagged > and not optional. Forgot about that one. It's one of things I like least in the base sieve specification, so this strengthens my resolve to keep this as a positional argument. Ned Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k96IUbfi081440; Fri, 6 Oct 2006 11:30:37 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k96IUb9a081439; Fri, 6 Oct 2006 11:30:37 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mauve.mrochek.com (206.117.180.234.brandx.net [206.117.180.234] (may be forged)) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k96IUaFq081432 for <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org>; Fri, 6 Oct 2006 11:30:36 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from ned.freed@mrochek.com) Received: from dkim-sign.mauve.mrochek.com by mauve.mrochek.com (PMDF V6.1-1 #35243) id <01M81CT6083K00P0LA@mauve.mrochek.com> for ietf-mta-filters@imc.org; Fri, 6 Oct 2006 11:30:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mauve.mrochek.com by mauve.mrochek.com (PMDF V6.1-1 #35243) id <01M810RRW4DS0008CX@mauve.mrochek.com>; Fri, 06 Oct 2006 11:30:26 -0700 (PDT) Cc: Ned Freed <ned.freed@mrochek.com>, ietf-mta-filters@imc.org To: Kjetil Torgrim Homme <kjetilho@ifi.uio.no> Message-id: <01M81CT539DI0008CX@mauve.mrochek.com> Date: Fri, 06 Oct 2006 11:26:09 -0700 (PDT) From: Ned Freed <ned.freed@mrochek.com> Subject: Re: the part argument to "date" In-reply-to: "Your message dated Thu, 05 Oct 2006 11:09:50 +0200" <1160039391.25238.48.camel@mattugur.ifi.uio.no> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN References: <1152660487.16652.157.camel@mattugur.ifi.uio.no> <01M7YU8S4O8Y0008CX@mauve.mrochek.com> <1160039391.25238.48.camel@mattugur.ifi.uio.no> Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-mta-filters/mail-archive/> List-ID: <ietf-mta-filters.imc.org> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-mta-filters-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> > On Wed, 2006-10-04 at 16:08 -0700, Ned Freed wrote: > > The main reason I chose to make this a positional argument is that tagged > > arguments are properly optional and I don't think the type of date test should > > be allowed to be optional. This is quite unlike the sitations with other tagged > > arguments - they have sensible defaults. > my suggested default is "iso8601" which seems useful to me, at least for > a relational comparator. but if you don't like it, by all means make > PART required. (I should've called it DATE-PART, btw.) I like having a required tagged argument (AFAIK that would be a first in sieve) even less than I like giving part a default value. In any case, unless someone else chimes in with an opinion on this I'm sticking with a positional argument. Ned Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k96H1MTZ072217; Fri, 6 Oct 2006 10:01:22 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k96H1MPe072216; Fri, 6 Oct 2006 10:01:22 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rufus.isode.com (rufus.isode.com [62.3.217.251]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k96H1Lb4072200 for <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org>; Fri, 6 Oct 2006 10:01:21 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from alexey.melnikov@isode.com) Received: from [172.16.2.177] (shiny.isode.com [62.3.217.250]) by rufus.isode.com (submission channel) via TCP with ESMTPA id <RSaL3wBAxr1E@rufus.isode.com>; Fri, 6 Oct 2006 18:01:19 +0100 Message-ID: <45268BDD.3030309@isode.com> Date: Fri, 06 Oct 2006 18:01:17 +0100 From: Alexey Melnikov <alexey.melnikov@isode.com> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050915 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Kjetil Torgrim Homme <kjetilho@ifi.uio.no> CC: ietf-mta-filters@imc.org Subject: Re: Proposal for escaping on non-UTF-8 sequences in Sieve References: <450DCEB9.2030403@isode.com> <20060918145149.GA11806@nostromo.freenet-ag.de> <450EB687.7000406@isode.com> <01M7C479AQ780008CX@mauve.mrochek.com> <20060918202050.GC12279@nostromo.freenet-ag.de> <Pine.BSO.4.64.0609181509400.7779@vanye.mho.net> <1159711450.13064.77.camel@honbori.ifi.uio.no> <1160097878.27906.128.camel@mattugur.ifi.uio.no> <452667CD.2080004@isode.com> <1160146633.11473.12.camel@havhest.ifi.uio.no> In-Reply-To: <1160146633.11473.12.camel@havhest.ifi.uio.no> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-mta-filters/mail-archive/> List-ID: <ietf-mta-filters.imc.org> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-mta-filters-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> Kjetil Torgrim Homme wrote: >On Fri, 2006-10-06 at 15:27 +0100, Alexey Melnikov wrote: > > >>Kjetil Torgrim Homme wrote: >> >> >>>in other words, we can do whatever we like with ${keyword:data}. I >>>prefer an extensible syntax over a compact one (Alexey's $%xx >>>suggestion), so my vote is for ${hex:7e}. please see suggested patch >>>below. >>> >>> >>I would prefer if we pick a more unique prefix. Something starting with >>'$' but not followed by '{' would be great. However if others feel >>strongly in favor of your variant, that would be fine too. Apart from >>that your proposal is fine with me. >> >> >glad to hear that. yes, the resemblance to variables syntax is a mixed >blessing. > >pro: it's easier to recognise magic sequences in the string. >con: it's easier to mix up the two syntaxes. > > I think cons. outweigh pros. in this case. Somebody can forget to use ':' after hex, etc. >I want to note that a syntax mix-up can be flagged at upload time, so I >don't think it's a big problem in practice. > > >>>- As message header data is converted to [UTF-8] for comparison (see >>>- section 2.7.2), most strings will use the UTF-8 encoding. However, >>>- implementations MUST accept all strings that match the grammar in >>>- section 8. The ability to use non-UTF-8 encoded strings matches >>>- existing practice and has proven to be useful both in tests for >>>- invalid data and in arguments containing raw MIME parts for extension >>>- actions that generate outgoing messages. >>>+ The extension "quoted-character" may be used to encode arbitrary >>>+ characters as a sequence of US-ASCII characters (see 2.4.2.4 for >>>+ details). >>> >>> For entering larger amounts of text, such as an email message, a >>> multi-line form is allowed. It starts with the keyword "text:", >>> >>> >>I am against this change, as it doesn't agree with the rough consensus >>in the group, which is to try keep existing implementations compliant. >> >> > >this was a bit lazy editting on my part. I made the argument for the >reinstating of status quo in a different thread, so please ignore the >removal here. > > So I will argue in another thread ;-). >>>+ quoted-arb-octets = "${hex:" hex-pair-seq "}" >>>+ hex-pair-seq = hex-pair *(WSP hex-pair) >>>+ hex-pair = 1*2HEXDIG >>> >>> >>Did you really want to allow for >>${hex: 7 8 9} >>? >> >> > >not sure what you're pointing at here ... > >a) yes, it may be a good idea to add leading and trailing WSP* in >quoted-arb-octets to allow arbitrary extra whitespace. > > This would be fine with me, but I was pointing out at single character hex-pair. >b) yes, it may be more readable to specify hex-pair as 2HEXDIG. I made >it 1*2HEXDIG since the Unicode is 1*5HEXDIG, so I suggest we change the >latter to 2*5 if the former is 2HEXDIG. > > I would rather use 2HEXDIG for octets and 1*5HEXDIG for Unicode, but 2*5HEXDIG is fine as well. >so I'm game whatever you say :-) > > Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k96F5CGc058296; Fri, 6 Oct 2006 08:05:12 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k96F5CdK058295; Fri, 6 Oct 2006 08:05:12 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mout1.freenet.de (mout1.freenet.de [194.97.50.132]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k96F58Nw058288 for <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org>; Fri, 6 Oct 2006 08:05:10 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from michael@freenet-ag.de) Received: from [194.97.55.147] (helo=mx4.freenet.de) by mout1.freenet.de with esmtpa (Exim 4.62) (envelope-from <michael@freenet-ag.de>) id 1GVrG6-0002Ry-UH for ietf-mta-filters@imc.org; Fri, 06 Oct 2006 17:05:06 +0200 Received: from nostromo.freenet-ag.de ([194.97.7.6]) by mx4.freenet.de with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.62 #12) id 1GVrG6-0005ZT-Rp for ietf-mta-filters@imc.org; Fri, 06 Oct 2006 17:05:06 +0200 Received: from michael by nostromo.freenet-ag.de with local (ID michael) (Exim 4.62 #12) id 1GVrG6-0008Vp-5D for ietf-mta-filters@imc.org; Fri, 06 Oct 2006 17:05:06 +0200 Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2006 17:05:06 +0200 From: Michael Haardt <michael@freenet-ag.de> To: ietf-mta-filters@imc.org Subject: Re: Proposal for escaping on non-UTF-8 sequences in Sieve Message-ID: <20061006150506.GA32695@nostromo.freenet-ag.de> References: <450DCEB9.2030403@isode.com> <20060918145149.GA11806@nostromo.freenet-ag.de> <450EB687.7000406@isode.com> <01M7C479AQ780008CX@mauve.mrochek.com> <20060918202050.GC12279@nostromo.freenet-ag.de> <Pine.BSO.4.64.0609181509400.7779@vanye.mho.net> <1159711450.13064.77.camel@honbori.ifi.uio.no> <1160097878.27906.128.camel@mattugur.ifi.uio.no> <452667CD.2080004@isode.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <452667CD.2080004@isode.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6i Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-mta-filters/mail-archive/> List-ID: <ietf-mta-filters.imc.org> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-mta-filters-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> On Fri, Oct 06, 2006 at 03:27:25PM +0100, Alexey Melnikov wrote: > I would prefer if we pick a more unique prefix. Something starting with > '$' but not followed by '{' would be great. However if others feel > strongly in favor of your variant, that would be fine too. Apart from > that your proposal is fine with me. Variables can be seen as functions without arguments. I don't think of the suggested extension it as quoting, but as function evaluation of constant arguments. Add variables, and you have functions of variable arguments. That's why I would like to use the syntax for argument-less functions, aka variables, for functions with arguments as well. :) Michael Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k96Evfwm057458; Fri, 6 Oct 2006 07:57:41 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k96EvfaF057457; Fri, 6 Oct 2006 07:57:41 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from pat.uio.no (IDENT:7411@pat.uio.no [129.240.10.4]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k96EvdfE057429 for <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org>; Fri, 6 Oct 2006 07:57:40 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from kjetilho@ifi.uio.no) Received: from mail-mx7.uio.no ([129.240.10.52]) by pat.uio.no with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GVr8l-0002NS-Ci; Fri, 06 Oct 2006 16:57:31 +0200 Received: from havhest.ifi.uio.no ([129.240.68.231]) by mail-mx7.uio.no with esmtpsa (TLSv1:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 4.43) id 1GVr8j-000360-8l; Fri, 06 Oct 2006 16:57:29 +0200 Subject: Re: Proposal for escaping on non-UTF-8 sequences in Sieve From: Kjetil Torgrim Homme <kjetilho@ifi.uio.no> To: Alexey Melnikov <alexey.melnikov@isode.com> Cc: Philip Guenther <guenther+mtafilters@sendmail.com>, Michael Haardt <michael@freenet-ag.de>, ietf-mta-filters@imc.org In-Reply-To: <452667CD.2080004@isode.com> References: <450DCEB9.2030403@isode.com> <20060918145149.GA11806@nostromo.freenet-ag.de> <450EB687.7000406@isode.com> <01M7C479AQ780008CX@mauve.mrochek.com> <20060918202050.GC12279@nostromo.freenet-ag.de> <Pine.BSO.4.64.0609181509400.7779@vanye.mho.net> <1159711450.13064.77.camel@honbori.ifi.uio.no> <1160097878.27906.128.camel@mattugur.ifi.uio.no> <452667CD.2080004@isode.com> Content-Type: text/plain Date: Fri, 06 Oct 2006 16:57:09 +0200 Message-Id: <1160146633.11473.12.camel@havhest.ifi.uio.no> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UiO-Spam-info: not spam, SpamAssassin (score=-4.635, required 12, autolearn=disabled, AWL 0.36, UIO_MAIL_IS_INTERNAL -5.00) Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-mta-filters/mail-archive/> List-ID: <ietf-mta-filters.imc.org> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-mta-filters-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> On Fri, 2006-10-06 at 15:27 +0100, Alexey Melnikov wrote: > Kjetil Torgrim Homme wrote: > >in other words, we can do whatever we like with ${keyword:data}. I > >prefer an extensible syntax over a compact one (Alexey's $%xx > >suggestion), so my vote is for ${hex:7e}. please see suggested patch > >below. > > I would prefer if we pick a more unique prefix. Something starting with > '$' but not followed by '{' would be great. However if others feel > strongly in favor of your variant, that would be fine too. Apart from > that your proposal is fine with me. glad to hear that. yes, the resemblance to variables syntax is a mixed blessing. pro: it's easier to recognise magic sequences in the string. con: it's easier to mix up the two syntaxes. I want to note that a syntax mix-up can be flagged at upload time, so I don't think it's a big problem in practice. > >- As message header data is converted to [UTF-8] for comparison (see > >- section 2.7.2), most strings will use the UTF-8 encoding. However, > >- implementations MUST accept all strings that match the grammar in > >- section 8. The ability to use non-UTF-8 encoded strings matches > >- existing practice and has proven to be useful both in tests for > >- invalid data and in arguments containing raw MIME parts for extension > >- actions that generate outgoing messages. > >+ The extension "quoted-character" may be used to encode arbitrary > >+ characters as a sequence of US-ASCII characters (see 2.4.2.4 for > >+ details). > > > > For entering larger amounts of text, such as an email message, a > > multi-line form is allowed. It starts with the keyword "text:", > > I am against this change, as it doesn't agree with the rough consensus > in the group, which is to try keep existing implementations compliant. this was a bit lazy editting on my part. I made the argument for the reinstating of status quo in a different thread, so please ignore the removal here. > >+ quoted-arb-octets = "${hex:" hex-pair-seq "}" > >+ hex-pair-seq = hex-pair *(WSP hex-pair) > >+ hex-pair = 1*2HEXDIG > > > > > Did you really want to allow for > ${hex: 7 8 9} > ? not sure what you're pointing at here ... a) yes, it may be a good idea to add leading and trailing WSP* in quoted-arb-octets to allow arbitrary extra whitespace. b) yes, it may be more readable to specify hex-pair as 2HEXDIG. I made it 1*2HEXDIG since the Unicode is 1*5HEXDIG, so I suggest we change the latter to 2*5 if the former is 2HEXDIG. so I'm game whatever you say :-) -- Kjetil T. Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k96ERXkx053969; Fri, 6 Oct 2006 07:27:33 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k96ERXoA053968; Fri, 6 Oct 2006 07:27:33 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rufus.isode.com (rufus.isode.com [62.3.217.251]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k96ERVfl053958 for <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org>; Fri, 6 Oct 2006 07:27:32 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from alexey.melnikov@isode.com) Received: from [172.16.2.177] (shiny.isode.com [62.3.217.250]) by rufus.isode.com (submission channel) via TCP with ESMTPA id <RSZnzgBAxkfA@rufus.isode.com>; Fri, 6 Oct 2006 15:27:26 +0100 Message-ID: <452667CD.2080004@isode.com> Date: Fri, 06 Oct 2006 15:27:25 +0100 From: Alexey Melnikov <alexey.melnikov@isode.com> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050915 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en To: Kjetil Torgrim Homme <kjetilho@ifi.uio.no> CC: Philip Guenther <guenther+mtafilters@sendmail.com>, Michael Haardt <michael@freenet-ag.de>, ietf-mta-filters@imc.org Subject: Re: Proposal for escaping on non-UTF-8 sequences in Sieve References: <450DCEB9.2030403@isode.com> <20060918145149.GA11806@nostromo.freenet-ag.de> <450EB687.7000406@isode.com> <01M7C479AQ780008CX@mauve.mrochek.com> <20060918202050.GC12279@nostromo.freenet-ag.de> <Pine.BSO.4.64.0609181509400.7779@vanye.mho.net> <1159711450.13064.77.camel@honbori.ifi.uio.no> <1160097878.27906.128.camel@mattugur.ifi.uio.no> In-Reply-To: <1160097878.27906.128.camel@mattugur.ifi.uio.no> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"; format="flowed" Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-mta-filters/mail-archive/> List-ID: <ietf-mta-filters.imc.org> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-mta-filters-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> Kjetil Torgrim Homme wrote: >On Sun, 2006-10-01 at 16:04 +0200, Kjetil Torgrim Homme wrote: > > >>variables don't allow a reference which acts as a function with >>arbitrary input (e.g., "${hex:e6 f8 e5}"), the tail end has to be an >>identifier or numbered variable. unfortunately, this means ${hex:7e} is >>disallowed, since "7e" is neither. >> >> > >I'm sorry, I was very confused. the "variables" syntax uses period, not >colon, to separate namespaces, so the suggested syntax would _resemble_ >it, but be completely independent of it ("variables" only affects >substrings which match the specified syntax exactly, so there's >definitely no conflict). > >in other words, we can do whatever we like with ${keyword:data}. I >prefer an extensible syntax over a compact one (Alexey's $%xx >suggestion), so my vote is for ${hex:7e}. please see suggested patch >below. > > I would prefer if we pick a more unique prefix. Something starting with '$' but not followed by '{' would be great. However if others feel strongly in favor of your variant, that would be fine too. Apart from that your proposal is fine with me. >a couple of notes: > >a) the extension name, "quoted-character", is off the top of my head. >feel free to use a different one if you prefer ("encode-char", >perhaps?). > > "encode-char" is slightly better, IMHO. quoted-* has strong association with quoted strings. >b) the syntax requires spaces between the items. it's possible to allow >${hex:ABCD} if we use this syntax instead: > > quoted-arb-octets = "${hex:" hex-pair-seq "}" > hex-pair-seq = hex-pair *(*WSP hex-pair) > hex-pair = 2HEXDIG > >on the other hand, some Unicode code points may need five hex digits >(such as U+1D10A, which is ð, the musical symbol "da capo"), but these >are quite rare, so most people will probably want to write just four >digits (e.g. U+4e2d U+56fd, which is ä¸å½, the name of China). this >means a sequence of Unicode characters can't be written unambiguosly and >conveniently as one long string of hex digits. therefore, to make them >consistent, both encodings require the values to be split by whitespace. >I think this improves readability, anyway. > >c) it may be presumptious of me to add this extension to the "SHOULD be >implemented" list, I won't be offended if it's listed as "MAY" ;-) > > Speaking personally, SHOULD is fine with me. >d) I'm no expert on ABNF, so please review. > > ==== >--- draft-ietf-sieve-3028bis-09.txt 2006-10-06 01:47:33.989869000 +0200 >+++ draft-ietf-sieve-3028bis-kjetilho.txt 2006-10-06 03:22:35.025194000 +0200 >@@ -385,13 +385,9 @@ > are permitted in quoted strings. Quoted strings MAY span multiple > lines. NUL (US-ASCII 0) is not allowed in strings. > >- As message header data is converted to [UTF-8] for comparison (see >- section 2.7.2), most strings will use the UTF-8 encoding. However, >- implementations MUST accept all strings that match the grammar in >- section 8. The ability to use non-UTF-8 encoded strings matches >- existing practice and has proven to be useful both in tests for >- invalid data and in arguments containing raw MIME parts for extension >- actions that generate outgoing messages. >+ The extension "quoted-character" may be used to encode arbitrary >+ characters as a sequence of US-ASCII characters (see 2.4.2.4 for >+ details). > > For entering larger amounts of text, such as an email message, a > multi-line form is allowed. It starts with the keyword "text:", > > I am against this change, as it doesn't agree with the rough consensus in the group, which is to try keep existing implementations compliant. However your change is fine, as long as the original text is not deleted. >@@ -470,6 +466,42 @@ > valid, but need not ensure that they actually identify an email > recipient. > >+2.4.2.4. Encoding characters using "quoted-character" >+ >+ When the "quoted-character" extension is in effect, certain >+ character sequences in strings are replaced by the unencoded value. >+ This happens after escape sequences are interpreted and >+ dot-unstuffing has been done. >+ >+ Arbitrary octets can be embedded in strings by using the syntax >+ quoted-arb-octets. The sequence is replaced by the octets with the >+ hexadecimal values given by each hex-pair. >+ >+ quoted-arb-octets = "${hex:" hex-pair-seq "}" >+ hex-pair-seq = hex-pair *(WSP hex-pair) >+ hex-pair = 1*2HEXDIG > > Did you really want to allow for ${hex: 7 8 9} ? The rest looks fine to me. Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k961Om8R076390; Thu, 5 Oct 2006 18:24:48 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k961OmtG076389; Thu, 5 Oct 2006 18:24:48 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from pat.uio.no (IDENT:7411@pat.uio.no [129.240.10.4]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k961OkOG076383 for <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org>; Thu, 5 Oct 2006 18:24:47 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from kjetilho@ifi.uio.no) Received: from mail-mx3.uio.no ([129.240.10.44]) by pat.uio.no with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GVeS9-0005S3-Ty; Fri, 06 Oct 2006 03:24:42 +0200 Received: from mattugur.ifi.uio.no ([129.240.68.168]) by mail-mx3.uio.no with esmtpsa (TLSv1:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 4.43) id 1GVeS7-0002nu-DE; Fri, 06 Oct 2006 03:24:39 +0200 Subject: Re: Proposal for escaping on non-UTF-8 sequences in Sieve From: Kjetil Torgrim Homme <kjetilho@ifi.uio.no> To: Philip Guenther <guenther+mtafilters@sendmail.com> Cc: Michael Haardt <michael@freenet-ag.de>, ietf-mta-filters@imc.org In-Reply-To: <1159711450.13064.77.camel@honbori.ifi.uio.no> References: <450DCEB9.2030403@isode.com> <20060918145149.GA11806@nostromo.freenet-ag.de> <450EB687.7000406@isode.com> <01M7C479AQ780008CX@mauve.mrochek.com> <20060918202050.GC12279@nostromo.freenet-ag.de> <Pine.BSO.4.64.0609181509400.7779@vanye.mho.net> <1159711450.13064.77.camel@honbori.ifi.uio.no> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=-O5vkLiE+eGNxPWUCCZ8B" Date: Fri, 06 Oct 2006 03:24:37 +0200 Message-Id: <1160097878.27906.128.camel@mattugur.ifi.uio.no> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.0 X-UiO-Spam-info: not spam, SpamAssassin (score=-4.973, required 12, autolearn=disabled, AWL 0.03, UIO_MAIL_IS_INTERNAL -5.00) Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-mta-filters/mail-archive/> List-ID: <ietf-mta-filters.imc.org> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-mta-filters-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> --=-O5vkLiE+eGNxPWUCCZ8B Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, 2006-10-01 at 16:04 +0200, Kjetil Torgrim Homme wrote: > variables don't allow a reference which acts as a function with > arbitrary input (e.g., "${hex:e6 f8 e5}"), the tail end has to be an > identifier or numbered variable. unfortunately, this means ${hex:7e} is > disallowed, since "7e" is neither. I'm sorry, I was very confused. the "variables" syntax uses period, not colon, to separate namespaces, so the suggested syntax would _resemble_ it, but be completely independent of it ("variables" only affects substrings which match the specified syntax exactly, so there's definitely no conflict). in other words, we can do whatever we like with ${keyword:data}. I prefer an extensible syntax over a compact one (Alexey's $%xx suggestion), so my vote is for ${hex:7e}. please see suggested patch below. a couple of notes: a) the extension name, "quoted-character", is off the top of my head. feel free to use a different one if you prefer ("encode-char", perhaps?). b) the syntax requires spaces between the items. it's possible to allow ${hex:ABCD} if we use this syntax instead: quoted-arb-octets =3D "${hex:" hex-pair-seq "}" hex-pair-seq =3D hex-pair *(*WSP hex-pair) hex-pair =3D 2HEXDIG on the other hand, some Unicode code points may need five hex digits (such as U+1D10A, which is =F0=9D=84=8A, the musical symbol "da capo"), but= these are quite rare, so most people will probably want to write just four digits (e.g. U+4e2d U+56fd, which is =E4=B8=AD=E5=9B=BD, the name of China)= . this means a sequence of Unicode characters can't be written unambiguosly and conveniently as one long string of hex digits. therefore, to make them consistent, both encodings require the values to be split by whitespace. I think this improves readability, anyway. c) it may be presumptious of me to add this extension to the "SHOULD be implemented" list, I won't be offended if it's listed as "MAY" ;-) d) I'm no expert on ABNF, so please review. --=20 Kjetil T. --=-O5vkLiE+eGNxPWUCCZ8B Content-Description: Content-Disposition: inline; filename=quoted-character.diff Content-Type: text/x-patch; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --- draft-ietf-sieve-3028bis-09.txt 2006-10-06 01:47:33.989869000 +0200 +++ draft-ietf-sieve-3028bis-kjetilho.txt 2006-10-06 03:22:35.025194000 +0200 @@ -385,13 +385,9 @@ are permitted in quoted strings. Quoted strings MAY span multiple lines. NUL (US-ASCII 0) is not allowed in strings. - As message header data is converted to [UTF-8] for comparison (see - section 2.7.2), most strings will use the UTF-8 encoding. However, - implementations MUST accept all strings that match the grammar in - section 8. The ability to use non-UTF-8 encoded strings matches - existing practice and has proven to be useful both in tests for - invalid data and in arguments containing raw MIME parts for extension - actions that generate outgoing messages. + The extension "quoted-character" may be used to encode arbitrary + characters as a sequence of US-ASCII characters (see 2.4.2.4 for + details). For entering larger amounts of text, such as an email message, a multi-line form is allowed. It starts with the keyword "text:", @@ -470,6 +466,42 @@ valid, but need not ensure that they actually identify an email recipient. +2.4.2.4. Encoding characters using "quoted-character" + + When the "quoted-character" extension is in effect, certain + character sequences in strings are replaced by the unencoded value. + This happens after escape sequences are interpreted and + dot-unstuffing has been done. + + Arbitrary octets can be embedded in strings by using the syntax + quoted-arb-octets. The sequence is replaced by the octets with the + hexadecimal values given by each hex-pair. + + quoted-arb-octets = "${hex:" hex-pair-seq "}" + hex-pair-seq = hex-pair *(WSP hex-pair) + hex-pair = 1*2HEXDIG + + It may be inconvenient or undesirable to enter Unicode characters + verbatim, and in these cases the syntax quoted-unicode-char can be + used. The sequence is replaced by the UTF-8 encoding of the + specified Unicode characters, which are identified by the + hexadecimal value of unicode-hex. + + quoted-unicode-char = "${unicode:" unicode-hex-seq "}" + unicode-hex-seq = unicode-hex *(WSP unicode-hex) + unicode-hex = 1*5HEXDIG + + The capability string for use with the require command is + "quoted-character". + + In the following script, message A is discarded, since the + specified test string is equivalent to "$$$". + + Example: require "quoted-character"; + if header :contains "Subject" "$${hex:24 24}" { + discard; + } + 2.5. Tests Tests are given as arguments to commands in order to control their @@ -1075,7 +1107,7 @@ Implementations MUST support the "keep", "discard", and "redirect" actions. - Implementations SHOULD support "fileinto". + Implementations SHOULD support "fileinto" and "quoted-character". Implementations MAY limit the number of certain actions taken (see section 2.10.4). @@ -1561,6 +1593,12 @@ RFC number: this RFC (Sieve base spec) Contact address: The Sieve discussion list <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org> + Capability name: quoted-character + Description: changes the parsing of strings to allow arbitrary + characters to be embedded + RFC number: this RFC (Sieve base spec) + Contact address: The Sieve discussion list <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org> + Capability name: comparator-* (anything starting with "comparator-") Description: adds the indicated comparator for use with the :comparator argument --=-O5vkLiE+eGNxPWUCCZ8B-- Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k960aRC9072837; Thu, 5 Oct 2006 17:36:27 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k960aRH8072836; Thu, 5 Oct 2006 17:36:27 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from pat.uio.no (IDENT:7411@pat.uio.no [129.240.10.4]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k960aQNg072830 for <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org>; Thu, 5 Oct 2006 17:36:26 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from kjetilho@ifi.uio.no) Received: from mail-mx3.uio.no ([129.240.10.44]) by pat.uio.no with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GVdhM-0000ZW-QI; Fri, 06 Oct 2006 02:36:20 +0200 Received: from mattugur.ifi.uio.no ([129.240.68.168]) by mail-mx3.uio.no with esmtpsa (TLSv1:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 4.43) id 1GVdhJ-0008U2-Ny; Fri, 06 Oct 2006 02:36:17 +0200 Subject: Re: non-UTF-8 sequences in Sieve scripts From: Kjetil Torgrim Homme <kjetilho@ifi.uio.no> To: Cyrus Daboo <cyrus@daboo.name> Cc: Michael Haardt <michael@freenet-ag.de>, ietf-mta-filters@imc.org In-Reply-To: <EC5678116479F564886BB3BD@Cyrus-Daboo-G5.local> References: <4509E6F8.7010602@isode.com> <20060918100643.GA10918@nostromo.freenet-ag.de> <6A481F5FAC62E7789D7C06C6@Cyrus-Daboo-G5.local> <20060918143303.GA11758@nostromo.freenet-ag.de> <EC5678116479F564886BB3BD@Cyrus-Daboo-G5.local> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Date: Fri, 06 Oct 2006 02:36:16 +0200 Message-Id: <1160094976.27906.90.camel@mattugur.ifi.uio.no> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.0 X-UiO-Spam-info: not spam, SpamAssassin (score=-4.973, required 12, autolearn=disabled, AWL 0.03, UIO_MAIL_IS_INTERNAL -5.00) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by balder-227.proper.com id k960aRNg072831 Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-mta-filters/mail-archive/> List-ID: <ietf-mta-filters.imc.org> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-mta-filters-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> On Mon, 2006-09-18 at 11:07 -0400, Cyrus Daboo wrote: > I cannot see any restriction that would prevent use of > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8-bit, in which case the MIME parts are not > necessarily US-ASCII and not necessarily UTF-8, e.g. a text/plain part with > charset=iso8859-1. in my opinion, it is quite clear that the intent of RFC 3028 is that a Sieve script is pure Unicode, it is actually quite explicit about it: [RFC 3028: 2.1. Form of the Language]: | [...] | The language is represented in UTF-8, as specified in [UTF-8]. [RFC 3028: 8.1. Lexical Tokens]: | | Sieve scripts are encoded in UTF-8. The following assumes a valid | UTF-8 encoding; special characters in Sieve scripts are all ASCII. it then goes on to define the grammar, but it takes a shortcut and says: | CHAR-NOT-STAR = (%x00-51 / %x53-ff) | quoted-string = DQUOTE *CHAR DQUOTE etc., which may seem to allow arbitrary octets, but it is constrained by the introductory paragraph. the embedded MIME part is no different from the rest of the script, and needs to conform to this. it shouldn't be necessary to state the restriction explicitly. these kinds of restrictions are very familiar in the context of MIME, and several options are available to make a MIME part which conforms to a UTF-8 transport. okay, fine, we don't have to make 3028bis more explicit than 3028 about disallowing arbitrary octets. but we should definitely not add explicit text which allows it either! let's stick to the original wording, but keep some of the clarifications from the draft: [3028bis-09: 2.1. Form of the Language (§2)]: | With the exceptions of strings and comments, the language is limited | to US-ASCII characters. Strings and comments may contain octets | outside the US-ASCII range. Specifically, they will normally be in | UTF-8, as specified in [UTF-8]. NUL (US-ASCII 0) is never permitted | in scripts, while CR and LF can only appear as the CRLF line ending. [my suggestion]: | With the exceptions of strings and comments, the language is limited | to US-ASCII characters. Strings and comments are encoded in | UTF-8, as specified in [UTF-8]. NUL (US-ASCII 0) is never permitted | in scripts, while CR and LF can only appear as the CRLF line ending. [3028bis-09: 2.4.2. Strings (§6)]: | As message header data is converted to [UTF-8] for comparison (see | section 2.7.2), most strings will use the UTF-8 encoding. However, | implementations MUST accept all strings that match the grammar in | section 8. The ability to use non-UTF-8 encoded strings matches | existing practice and has proven to be useful both in tests for | invalid data and in arguments containing raw MIME parts for extension | actions that generate outgoing messages. [my suggestion]: | [strike paragraph 6 in its entirety] the text from 8.1 is unchanged in 3028bis-09, so this is all we need to maintain status quo. we'll also keep the accurate UTF-8 definitions of characters out of the ABNF, but may decide to change that later, in the Standard revision of the document. I hope this proposal is agreeable to all concerned. -- Kjetil T. Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k95FwrJY021631; Thu, 5 Oct 2006 08:58:53 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k95FwrE2021630; Thu, 5 Oct 2006 08:58:53 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from rufus.isode.com (rufus.isode.com [62.3.217.251]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k95Fwqnb021622 for <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org>; Thu, 5 Oct 2006 08:58:53 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from alexey.melnikov@isode.com) Received: from [172.16.2.136] (shiny.isode.com [62.3.217.250]) by rufus.isode.com (submission channel) via TCP with ESMTPA id <RSUrugBAxsUI@rufus.isode.com>; Thu, 5 Oct 2006 16:58:51 +0100 Message-ID: <45252BB7.40805@isode.com> Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2006 16:58:47 +0100 From: Alexey Melnikov <alexey.melnikov@isode.com> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050915 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Kjetil Torgrim Homme <kjetilho@ifi.uio.no> CC: ietf-mta-filters@imc.org Subject: Re: Proposal for escaping on non-UTF-8 sequences in Sieve References: <450DCEB9.2030403@isode.com> <20060918145149.GA11806@nostromo.freenet-ag.de> <450EB687.7000406@isode.com> <01M7C479AQ780008CX@mauve.mrochek.com> <4516F364.2030404@isode.com> <20061002113947.GA19686@nostromo.freenet-ag.de> <1160039791.25238.54.camel@mattugur.ifi.uio.no> In-Reply-To: <1160039791.25238.54.camel@mattugur.ifi.uio.no> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-mta-filters/mail-archive/> List-ID: <ietf-mta-filters.imc.org> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-mta-filters-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> Kjetil Torgrim Homme wrote: >I would still like to see a escape mechanism which also allows the entry >of Unicode (in UTF-8) in a pure US-ASCII script, I only mention this >since $%xx isn't really flexible enough for this -- the user shouldn't >have to do the UTF-8 transformation themselves. > > The current proposal ($%xx) is sufficient to address the issue in the base spec in order to be able to send it to IESG. If you want to add Unicode, you need to suggest some text now. Alexey, Sieve co-chair Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k959GfuR070003; Thu, 5 Oct 2006 02:16:41 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k959GfVe070002; Thu, 5 Oct 2006 02:16:41 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from pat.uio.no (IDENT:7411@pat.uio.no [129.240.10.4]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k959Ge25069986 for <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org>; Thu, 5 Oct 2006 02:16:41 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from kjetilho@ifi.uio.no) Received: from mail-mx6.uio.no ([129.240.10.47]) by pat.uio.no with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GVPLI-0006wU-ST; Thu, 05 Oct 2006 11:16:37 +0200 Received: from mattugur.ifi.uio.no ([129.240.68.168]) by mail-mx6.uio.no with esmtpsa (TLSv1:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 4.43) id 1GVPLD-0001HF-SH; Thu, 05 Oct 2006 11:16:31 +0200 Subject: Re: Proposal for escaping on non-UTF-8 sequences in Sieve From: Kjetil Torgrim Homme <kjetilho@ifi.uio.no> To: Michael Haardt <michael@freenet-ag.de> Cc: ietf-mta-filters@imc.org In-Reply-To: <20061002113947.GA19686@nostromo.freenet-ag.de> References: <450DCEB9.2030403@isode.com> <20060918145149.GA11806@nostromo.freenet-ag.de> <450EB687.7000406@isode.com> <01M7C479AQ780008CX@mauve.mrochek.com> <4516F364.2030404@isode.com> <20061002113947.GA19686@nostromo.freenet-ag.de> Content-Type: text/plain Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2006 11:16:31 +0200 Message-Id: <1160039791.25238.54.camel@mattugur.ifi.uio.no> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UiO-Spam-info: not spam, SpamAssassin (score=-5.005, required 12, autolearn=disabled, AWL -0.01, UIO_MAIL_IS_INTERNAL -5.00) Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-mta-filters/mail-archive/> List-ID: <ietf-mta-filters.imc.org> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-mta-filters-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> On Mon, 2006-10-02 at 13:39 +0200, Michael Haardt wrote: > On Sun, Sep 24, 2006 at 10:06:44PM +0100, Alexey Melnikov wrote: > > After thinking more about this (and reviewing list of options provided > > by Philip), I would like to propose a variables-like syntax close to > > what you suggested above: > > $%<hex> > > controlled by a new Sieve capability "string-escape". > > This would give existing implementations an ability to provide the > > escaping functionality in both quoted and multiline strings, without the > > need to implement variables. > > Any objections? > > Just curious: What speaks against using the syntax of variables? It is > certainly a MUST that the new extension does not require variables, > but that does not forbid to use their syntax. > > $%xx$%xx is OK for me, but ${hex:xxxx} is easier to read and we don't > get in trouble, should someone really miss ${frombase64:xxxx} and add it. as noted in my message on Sunday, you can't make ${frombase64:xxxx}. even quoted-printable is a stretch, as I demonstrated (_jokingly_ I hasten to add, although perhaps that wasn't clear). I would still like to see a escape mechanism which also allows the entry of Unicode (in UTF-8) in a pure US-ASCII script, I only mention this since $%xx isn't really flexible enough for this -- the user shouldn't have to do the UTF-8 transformation themselves. -- Kjetil T. Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k959A4O5069187; Thu, 5 Oct 2006 02:10:04 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k959A4Vw069186; Thu, 5 Oct 2006 02:10:04 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from pat.uio.no (IDENT:7411@pat.uio.no [129.240.10.4]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k959A1cW069162 for <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org>; Thu, 5 Oct 2006 02:10:04 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from kjetilho@ifi.uio.no) Received: from mail-mx1.uio.no ([129.240.10.29]) by pat.uio.no with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GVPEq-0005Tg-Oz; Thu, 05 Oct 2006 11:09:56 +0200 Received: from mattugur.ifi.uio.no ([129.240.68.168]) by mail-mx1.uio.no with esmtpsa (TLSv1:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 4.43) id 1GVPEm-0005Op-Rd; Thu, 05 Oct 2006 11:09:52 +0200 Subject: Re: the part argument to "date" From: Kjetil Torgrim Homme <kjetilho@ifi.uio.no> To: Ned Freed <ned.freed@mrochek.com> Cc: ietf-mta-filters@imc.org In-Reply-To: <01M7YU8S4O8Y0008CX@mauve.mrochek.com> References: <1152660487.16652.157.camel@mattugur.ifi.uio.no> <01M7YU8S4O8Y0008CX@mauve.mrochek.com> Content-Type: text/plain Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2006 11:09:50 +0200 Message-Id: <1160039391.25238.48.camel@mattugur.ifi.uio.no> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UiO-Spam-info: not spam, SpamAssassin (score=-5, required 12, autolearn=disabled, AWL 0.00, UIO_MAIL_IS_INTERNAL -5.00) Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-mta-filters/mail-archive/> List-ID: <ietf-mta-filters.imc.org> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-mta-filters-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> On Wed, 2006-10-04 at 16:08 -0700, Ned Freed wrote: > The main reason I chose to make this a positional argument is that tagged > arguments are properly optional and I don't think the type of date test should > be allowed to be optional. This is quite unlike the sitations with other tagged > arguments - they have sensible defaults. my suggested default is "iso8601" which seems useful to me, at least for a relational comparator. but if you don't like it, by all means make PART required. (I should've called it DATE-PART, btw.) -- Kjetil T. Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k950NGuR007878; Wed, 4 Oct 2006 17:23:16 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k950NGFm007877; Wed, 4 Oct 2006 17:23:16 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp-out.sendmail.com (smtp-out.sendmail.com [209.246.26.45]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k950NFu2007870 for <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org>; Wed, 4 Oct 2006 17:23:15 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from guenther+mtafilters@sendmail.com) Received: from [10.201.0.58] (adsl-64-58-1-252.mho.net [64.58.1.252] (may be forged)) (authenticated bits=0) by foon.sendmail.com (Switch-3.2.5/Switch-3.2.0) with ESMTP id k950MxK3004246 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 4 Oct 2006 17:23:01 -0700 X-DKIM: Sendmail DKIM Filter v0.5.1 foon.sendmail.com k950MxK3004246 DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/simple; d=sendmail.com; s=tls.dkim; t=1160007782; bh=vVPdmCoEp7zdCfYGfj4L/KHpcok=; h=X-DomainKeys: DomainKey-Signature:Date:From:X-X-Sender:To:cc:Subject:In-Reply-To: Message-ID:References:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=jPWIA4qmFSgEnijP 80qqzC695YAJfy/tswoWp5nnxnXGV+D9q1WWfhSTWuMkWvc4Rlt5Vw+yUWgoYnBvcT4 i46nHucEUuciEws3rzqWBvLXIdKDEeGkaksWoiRJVj8sUexe06ghAyPtn9QwI/EjH1I D9zSl/GYV44eVP6r2yFDI= X-DomainKeys: Sendmail DomainKeys Filter v0.4.1 foon.sendmail.com k950MxK3004246 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; s=tls; d=sendmail.com; c=nofws; q=dns; h=date:from:x-x-sender:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:message-id: references:mime-version:content-type; b=Hpp+h4nR/PpFYrd07hQCD/tG8c1a48vuIvG6f4lgAs5Ve/DEy+OPdzvOcVj8e5J09 4h3fduhFwJghdaCfPz2VEzf52Ww2tLsLB63ZkeJi21/kDOio78hL+7CIDwSkYrGEPdW g1gSHXDBTG7NH83HtbdygdcCbBgB8jPmu++wYDI= Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2006 18:22:58 -0600 From: Philip Guenther <guenther+mtafilters@sendmail.com> X-X-Sender: guenther@vanye.mho.net To: Ned Freed <ned.freed@mrochek.com> cc: Kjetil Torgrim Homme <kjetilho@ifi.uio.no>, ietf-mta-filters@imc.org Subject: Re: the part argument to "date" In-Reply-To: <01M7YU8S4O8Y0008CX@mauve.mrochek.com> Message-ID: <Pine.BSO.4.64.0610041818250.309@vanye.mho.net> References: <1152660487.16652.157.camel@mattugur.ifi.uio.no> <01M7YU8S4O8Y0008CX@mauve.mrochek.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-mta-filters/mail-archive/> List-ID: <ietf-mta-filters.imc.org> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-mta-filters-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> On Wed, 4 Oct 2006, Ned Freed wrote: ... >> I don't quite like the part argument to "date", since the possible >> values are listed explicitly. making each of them a tagged argument is >> easier to express in the grammar, and it avoids the problem of >> "${format}" which can fail during run-time. outline of suggested >> change: > > The main reason I chose to make this a positional argument is that > tagged arguments are properly optional and I don't think the type of > date test should be allowed to be optional. Tagged arguments != Optional arguments, despite looking the same. C.f. section 2.6 of RFC 3028. > This is quite unlike the sitations with other tagged arguments - they > have sensible defaults. It's like the :over/:user arguments to the 'size' test...which are tagged and not optional. Philip Guenther Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k94NHKiw002468; Wed, 4 Oct 2006 16:17:20 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k94NHKEV002467; Wed, 4 Oct 2006 16:17:20 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mauve.mrochek.com (206.117.180.234.brandx.net [206.117.180.234] (may be forged)) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k94NHGie002361 for <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org>; Wed, 4 Oct 2006 16:17:18 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from ned.freed@mrochek.com) Received: from dkim-sign.mauve.mrochek.com by mauve.mrochek.com (PMDF V6.1-1 #35243) id <01M7YU8T556800VX97@mauve.mrochek.com> for ietf-mta-filters@imc.org; Wed, 4 Oct 2006 16:17:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mauve.mrochek.com by mauve.mrochek.com (PMDF V6.1-1 #35243) id <01M7YK5XVK8G0008CX@mauve.mrochek.com>; Wed, 04 Oct 2006 16:17:02 -0700 (PDT) Cc: ietf-mta-filters@imc.org To: Kjetil Torgrim Homme <kjetilho@ifi.uio.no> Message-id: <01M7YU8S4O8Y0008CX@mauve.mrochek.com> Date: Wed, 04 Oct 2006 16:08:50 -0700 (PDT) From: Ned Freed <ned.freed@mrochek.com> Subject: Re: the part argument to "date" In-reply-to: "Your message dated Wed, 12 Jul 2006 01:28:07 +0200" <1152660487.16652.157.camel@mattugur.ifi.uio.no> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN References: <1152660487.16652.157.camel@mattugur.ifi.uio.no> Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-mta-filters/mail-archive/> List-ID: <ietf-mta-filters.imc.org> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-mta-filters-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> (sorry for the delay getting back to this) > I don't quite like the part argument to "date", since the possible > values are listed explicitly. making each of them a tagged argument is > easier to express in the grammar, and it avoids the problem of > "${format}" which can fail during run-time. outline of suggested > change: The main reason I chose to make this a positional argument is that tagged arguments are properly optional and I don't think the type of date test should be allowed to be optional. This is quite unlike the sitations with other tagged arguments - they have sensible defaults. > 4. Date Test > Usage: date [":zone" <time-zone: string>] [COMPARATOR] > [MATCH-TYPE] [PART] <header-name: string> > <key-list: string-list> > [...] > 4.2. Part argument > The "PART" syntax element is defined as follows: > Syntax: ":year" / ":month" / ":day" [...] > The optional part argument specifies a particular part of the > resulting date/time value to match against the key-list. If no part > argument is given, ":iso8601" is used. The available parts are: > [description of each part suitably edited] > Ned, I can write a more specific patch if you like, if you send me your > source. I'd like to hear from anyone else with an opinion on this. If there's a consensus to make the change I have no problem, but if its just you any me who care I'd prefer to stick with my approach. > (BTW, I changed "parameter" to "argument" since that's what the base > spec calls them.) Noted. I'll change things accordingly. Ned Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k92Bdo6o000830; Mon, 2 Oct 2006 04:39:50 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k92BdoS3000829; Mon, 2 Oct 2006 04:39:50 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mout2.freenet.de (mout2.freenet.de [194.97.50.155]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k92BdmFL000813 for <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org>; Mon, 2 Oct 2006 04:39:49 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from michael@freenet-ag.de) Received: from [194.97.55.192] (helo=mx8.freenet.de) by mout2.freenet.de with esmtpa (Exim 4.62) (envelope-from <michael@freenet-ag.de>) id 1GUM9D-0004v3-TK for ietf-mta-filters@imc.org; Mon, 02 Oct 2006 13:39:47 +0200 Received: from nostromo.freenet-ag.de ([194.97.7.6]) by mx8.freenet.de with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.62 #12) id 1GUM9D-0002Wv-QO for ietf-mta-filters@imc.org; Mon, 02 Oct 2006 13:39:47 +0200 Received: from michael by nostromo.freenet-ag.de with local (ID michael) (Exim 4.62 #12) id 1GUM9D-00057r-75 for ietf-mta-filters@imc.org; Mon, 02 Oct 2006 13:39:47 +0200 Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2006 13:39:47 +0200 From: Michael Haardt <michael@freenet-ag.de> To: ietf-mta-filters@imc.org Subject: Re: Proposal for escaping on non-UTF-8 sequences in Sieve Message-ID: <20061002113947.GA19686@nostromo.freenet-ag.de> References: <450DCEB9.2030403@isode.com> <20060918145149.GA11806@nostromo.freenet-ag.de> <450EB687.7000406@isode.com> <01M7C479AQ780008CX@mauve.mrochek.com> <4516F364.2030404@isode.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <4516F364.2030404@isode.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6i Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-mta-filters/mail-archive/> List-ID: <ietf-mta-filters.imc.org> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-mta-filters-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> On Sun, Sep 24, 2006 at 10:06:44PM +0100, Alexey Melnikov wrote: > After thinking more about this (and reviewing list of options provided > by Philip), I would like to propose a variables-like syntax close to > what you suggested above: > $%<hex> > controlled by a new Sieve capability "string-escape". > This would give existing implementations an ability to provide the > escaping functionality in both quoted and multiline strings, without the > need to implement variables. > Any objections? Just curious: What speaks against using the syntax of variables? It is certainly a MUST that the new extension does not require variables, but that does not forbid to use their syntax. $%xx$%xx is OK for me, but ${hex:xxxx} is easier to read and we don't get in trouble, should someone really miss ${frombase64:xxxx} and add it. Michael Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k91E4SRY031041; Sun, 1 Oct 2006 07:04:28 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5/Submit) id k91E4SBn031040; Sun, 1 Oct 2006 07:04:28 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from pat.uio.no (IDENT:7411@pat.uio.no [129.240.10.4]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id k91E4P2X031033 for <ietf-mta-filters@imc.org>; Sun, 1 Oct 2006 07:04:27 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from kjetilho@ifi.uio.no) Received: from mail-mx7.uio.no ([129.240.10.52]) by pat.uio.no with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GU1vY-0006Gx-Ms; Sun, 01 Oct 2006 16:04:20 +0200 Received: from honbori.ifi.uio.no ([129.240.65.192]) by mail-mx7.uio.no with esmtpsa (TLSv1:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 4.43) id 1GU1vU-0004G7-LN; Sun, 01 Oct 2006 16:04:16 +0200 Subject: Re: Proposal for escaping on non-UTF-8 sequences in Sieve From: Kjetil Torgrim Homme <kjetilho@ifi.uio.no> To: Philip Guenther <guenther+mtafilters@sendmail.com> Cc: Michael Haardt <michael@freenet-ag.de>, ietf-mta-filters@imc.org In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSO.4.64.0609181509400.7779@vanye.mho.net> References: <450DCEB9.2030403@isode.com> <20060918145149.GA11806@nostromo.freenet-ag.de> <450EB687.7000406@isode.com> <01M7C479AQ780008CX@mauve.mrochek.com> <20060918202050.GC12279@nostromo.freenet-ag.de> <Pine.BSO.4.64.0609181509400.7779@vanye.mho.net> Content-Type: text/plain Date: Sun, 01 Oct 2006 16:04:09 +0200 Message-Id: <1159711450.13064.77.camel@honbori.ifi.uio.no> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UiO-Spam-info: not spam, SpamAssassin (score=-4.635, required 12, autolearn=disabled, AWL 0.36, UIO_MAIL_IS_INTERNAL -5.00) Sender: owner-ietf-mta-filters@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: <http://www.imc.org/ietf-mta-filters/mail-archive/> List-ID: <ietf-mta-filters.imc.org> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-mta-filters-request@imc.org?body=unsubscribe> On Mon, 2006-09-18 at 15:12 -0600, Philip Guenther wrote: > On Mon, 18 Sep 2006, Michael Haardt wrote: > > On Mon, Sep 18, 2006 at 09:44:20AM -0700, Ned Freed wrote: > >> There are all sorts of ways to do it. Here's an obvious one: If the > >> octet-value extension is enabled, any occurances of ${x} where x takes > >> the form of a space-separated list of decimal values is replaced with > >> a sequence of octets corresponding to each value. > > > > What a brilliant idea! How about using the same syntax variables do, > > and embedding arbitrary data written as a function? > > You mean something like option (3) from my message of March 2005? > http://www.imc.org/ietf-mta-filters/mail-archive/msg02018.html (sorry about responding so late to the discussion!) the difference is that your suggestion added a dependency on variables. the new idea is that we're using a syntax which is compatible with variables, but can be used and implemented on its own. some issues which would need ironing out: variables don't allow a reference which acts as a function with arbitrary input (e.g., "${hex:e6 f8 e5}"), the tail end has to be an identifier or numbered variable. unfortunately, this means ${hex:7e} is disallowed, since "7e" is neither. to solve this, you'd either need to abandon hex and go for decimal values, or to introduce a prefix character in addition to the namespace: ${hex:x7e}. if we choose the latter, we could consider using one namespace for several encodings, e.g., ${data:x7e}, ${data:u007e} and, if we want to stretch it maximally, ${data:q_53ort__of__q_2dp} -- Kjetil T.
- List of open issues with Sieve reject draft (draf… Alexey Melnikov
- Re: List of open issues with Sieve reject draft (… Nigel Swinson
- Re: List of open issues with Sieve reject draft (… Kjetil Torgrim Homme
- Re: List of open issues with Sieve reject draft (… Ned Freed
- Re: List of open issues with Sieve reject draft (… Arnt Gulbrandsen
- Re: List of open issues with Sieve reject draft (… Kjetil Torgrim Homme
- Re: List of open issues with Sieve reject draft (… Nigel Swinson
- Re: List of open issues with Sieve reject draft (… Kjetil Torgrim Homme
- Re: List of open issues with Sieve reject draft(d… Nigel Swinson
- Re: List of open issues with Sieve reject draft(d… Kjetil Torgrim Homme
- Re: List of open issues with Sieve reject draft (… Mark E. Mallett
- Re: List of open issues with Sieve reject draft (… Dave Cridland
- Re: List of open issues with Sieve reject draft (… Kjetil Torgrim Homme
- Re: List of open issues with Sieve reject draft (… Mark E. Mallett
- Re: List of open issues with Sieve reject draft (… Kjetil Torgrim Homme
- Re: List of open issues with Sieve reject draft (… Arnt Gulbrandsen
- Re: List of open issues with Sieve reject draft (… Kjetil Torgrim Homme
- Re: List of open issues with Sieve reject draft (… Mark E. Mallett
- Re: List of open issues with Sieve reject draft (… Mark E. Mallett
- Re: List of open issues with Sieve reject draft (… Arnt Gulbrandsen
- Re: List of open issues with Sieve reject draft (… Arnt Gulbrandsen
- Re: List of open issues with Sieve reject draft(d… Aaron Stone
- Re: List of open issues with Sieve reject draft(d… Kjetil Torgrim Homme
- Re: List of open issues with Sieve reject draft(d… Arnt Gulbrandsen
- Re: List of open issues with Sieve reject draft(d… Kjetil Torgrim Homme
- Re: List of open issues with Sieve reject draft (… Alexey Melnikov
- Re: List of open issues with Sieve reject draft (… Aaron Stone
- Re: List of open issues with Sieve reject draft (… Alexey Melnikov
- Re: List of open issues with Sieve reject draft(d… Aaron Stone
- Re: List of open issues with Sieve reject draft(d… Aaron Stone
- Re: List of open issues with Sieve reject draft (… Aaron Stone
- Re: List of open issues with Sieve reject draft (… Alexey Melnikov
- Re: List of open issues with Sieve reject draft (… Kristin Hubner
- Re: List of open issues with Sieve reject draft (… Kristin Hubner
- Re: List of open issues with Sieve reject draft(d… Arnt Gulbrandsen
- Re: List of open issues with Sieve reject draft (… Alexey Melnikov
- Re: List of open issues with Sieve reject draft Matthew Elvey
- Re: List of open issues with Sieve reject draft Matthew Elvey