Re: [lamps] Adoption call for draft-housley-lamps-cms-sha3-hash

[Mike Ounsworth <[e-mail]>]

Panos,

Perfect, let’s talk at 118  – you, me, Russ.


If SHAKE-as-message-digest is better in all the ways than raw SHA3, then I am fine to use that and withdraw my support of draft-housley-lamps-cms-sha3-hash.

---
Mike Ounsworth

From: Kampanakis, Panos <kpanos=[e-mail]>
Sent: Saturday, October 28, 2023 9:37 PM
To: Mike Ounsworth <[e-mail]>; Russ Housley <[e-mail]>
Cc: LAMPS <[e-mail]>
Subject: [EXTERNAL] RE: [lamps] Re: Adoption call for draft-housley-lamps-cms-sha3-hash

Hi Mike, > I guess this is a design choice that the WG can discuss. We could instead use id-shake-256 from RFC8702, which is usable as a digest algorithm as per section 3. 1, but why? If what I actually want is a hash function, then why can’t

Hi Mike,

> I guess this is a design choice that the WG can discuss. We could instead use id-shake-256 from RFC8702, which is usable as a digest algorithm as per section 3.1, but why? If what I actually want is a hash function, then why can’t I have a hash function?

I suggest to discuss this in IETF-118. SHAKEs are XOFs but can be used just fine as hashes with constant output size. Their performance is better, and generally that is the reason they have be favored and more adopted than SHA-3 (in the same family).





From: Spasm <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>> On Behalf Of Mike Ounsworth
Sent: Saturday, October 28, 2023 2:08 PM
To: Russ Housley <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>>; Kampanakis, Panos <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>>
Cc: LAMPS <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>>
Subject: RE: [EXTERNAL] [lamps] [EXTERNAL] Re: Adoption call for draft-housley-lamps-cms-sha3-hash


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Panos,

Specifically, draft-ietf-lamps-pq-composite-kem instantiates RSA-KEM (RFC5990bis) with:
keyDerivationFunction  kda-kdf3 with id-sha3-256
See:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-lamps-pq-composite-kem-02#name-rsa-kem-parameters<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-lamps-pq-composite-kem-02*name-rsa-kem-parameters__;Iw!!FJ-Y8qCqXTj2!YpVKgZ4YDTNoEWwdRgyoTphb1C6VF0yaz3nQfIeevC8X4Gi5y1BvJKecuOirVD_LKdtPC79Qs-r3RtyscuvFw4-0f4aiVSSqB6-I$>

Therefore, I need an OID for id-sha3-256.

I guess this is a design choice that the WG can discuss. We could instead use id-shake-256 from RFC8702, which is usable as a digest algorithm as per section 3.1, but why? If what I actually want is a hash function, then why can’t I have a hash function?

- Mike Ounsworth
________________________________
From: Spasm <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>> on behalf of Russ Housley <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>>
Sent: Saturday, October 28, 2023 10:44:57 AM
To: Panos Kampanakis <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>>
Cc: LAMPS <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>>
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [lamps] Adoption call for draft-housley-lamps-cms-sha3-hash

Panos: Mike Ounsworth needs these OIDs to be available, and the easiest solution was to just publish the previously abandoned I-D. Russ On Oct 27, 2023, at 11: 00 PM, Kampanakis, Panos <kpanos=40amazon. com@ dmarc. ietf. org> wrote: Hi Russ,

Panos:

Mike Ounsworth needs these OIDs to be available, and the easiest solution was to just publish the previously abandoned I-D.

Russ


On Oct 27, 2023, at 11:00 PM, Kampanakis, Panos <kpanos=[e-mail]<mailto:kpanos=[e-mail]>> wrote:

Hi Russ,

I was under the impression that SHAKEs for CMS and X.509 would suffice for introducing the Keccak family to these standards. SHAKEs have the same security and better performance. I thought that was the reason draft-turner-lamps-adding-sha3-to-pkix never made it.

Is there a reason why someone would use SHA-3 in CMS instead of SHAKE128 or SHAKE256 (RFC8702)?



From: Spasm <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>> On Behalf Of Tim Hollebeek
Sent: Friday, October 27, 2023 11:39 AM
To: SPASM <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>>
Subject: [EXTERNAL] [lamps] Adoption call for draft-housley-lamps-cms-sha3-hash


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Hello,

Russ has asked for an adoption call for this short document that explains how to
use SHA-3 with CMS.  Since people may be traveling to IETF 118, we’ll do a three
week adoption call.


https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-housley-lamps-cms-sha3-hash-00<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-housley-lamps-cms-sha3-hash-00__;!!FJ-Y8qCqXTj2!btMHx3oQg1XcdsmiDk3zQn-HVGxUExFHzJp0v2bwunfFVR3P8235FQ_QH4pzRkyD49fJSywzek8dgSw-P9DqGArWDMhf$>

Abstract

   This document describes the conventions for using the four one-way
   hash functions in the SHA3 family with the Cryptographic Message
   Syntax (CMS).

Please indicate whether you support adoption, and optionally indicate why, on
the list by 17 November 2023.

For the chairs,

-Tim

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