[lamps] Re: P-384 in draft-ietf-lamps-pq-composite-kem et al.
"D. J. Bernstein" <djb@cr.yp.to> Tue, 03 June 2025 21:34 UTC
Return-Path: <djb-dsn2-1406711340.7506@cr.yp.to>
X-Original-To: spasm@mail2.ietf.org
Delivered-To: spasm@mail2.ietf.org
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail2.ietf.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7699B306CE4B for <spasm@mail2.ietf.org>; Tue, 3 Jun 2025 14:34:23 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at ietf.org
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -4.097
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_VALIDITY_RPBL_BLOCKED=0.001, RCVD_IN_VALIDITY_SAFE_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001, URIBL_SBL_A=0.1] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Received: from mail2.ietf.org ([166.84.6.31]) by localhost (mail2.ietf.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id krkAdj1rMsAZ for <spasm@mail2.ietf.org>; Tue, 3 Jun 2025 14:34:22 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from salsa.cs.uic.edu (salsa.cs.uic.edu [131.193.32.108]) by mail2.ietf.org (Postfix) with SMTP id D6251306CE3E for <spasm@ietf.org>; Tue, 3 Jun 2025 14:34:22 -0700 (PDT)
Received: (qmail 16203 invoked by uid 1010); 3 Jun 2025 21:34:21 -0000
Received: from unknown (unknown) by unknown with QMTP; 3 Jun 2025 21:34:21 -0000
Received: (qmail 3791440 invoked by uid 1000); 3 Jun 2025 21:34:12 -0000
Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2025 21:34:12 -0000
Message-ID: <20250603213412.3791438.qmail@cr.yp.to>
From: "D. J. Bernstein" <djb@cr.yp.to>
To: spasm@ietf.org
Mail-Followup-To: spasm@ietf.org
In-Reply-To: <MN2PR09MB4745BC71D6FF2DBA67E5B024F362A@MN2PR09MB4745.namprd09.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID-Hash: QXSYDR6RRSWK3LNJLI43MPL6QXMD52T6
X-Message-ID-Hash: QXSYDR6RRSWK3LNJLI43MPL6QXMD52T6
X-MailFrom: djb-dsn2-1406711340.7506@cr.yp.to
X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; header-match-spasm.ietf.org-0; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header
X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.9rc6
Precedence: list
Subject: [lamps] Re: P-384 in draft-ietf-lamps-pq-composite-kem et al.
List-Id: This is the mail list for the LAMPS Working Group <spasm.ietf.org>
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spasm/ytjNpbERE-YgKw-7c_w-ZRUA1Fw>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/spasm>
List-Help: <mailto:spasm-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Owner: <mailto:spasm-owner@ietf.org>
List-Post: <mailto:spasm@ietf.org>
List-Subscribe: <mailto:spasm-join@ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:spasm-leave@ietf.org>
mjjenki@cyber.nsa.gov writes: > Obviously, there are folks who view composite as a viable and perhaps > necessary transition strategy. Please note that the main argument for hybrids is security. For example, the large-scale deployment of hybrid SIKE+ECC (CECPQ2) would have been a security disaster if the ECC part had been removed. > As the CNSA 2.0 profiles should make clear, we are looking for > products that support /standalone/ ML-DSA-87 and /standalone/ > ML-KEM-1024. To clarify, does "looking for" non-hybrids mean that NSA won't authorize purchases of hybrids? Is there an official statement saying this? I've seen a few individual employees making statements that sound like this, but that's not the same as a official statement. Meanwhile I found https://web.archive.org/web/20220524232250/https://www.nsa.gov/Portals/75/documents/resources/everyone/csfc/threat-prevention.pdf asking for two independent encryption layers "to mitigate the ability of an adversary to exploit a single cryptographic implementation", and https://web.archive.org/web/20240927153634/https://media.defense.gov/2022/Sep/07/2003071834/-1/-1/0/CSA_CNSA_2.0_ALGORITHMS_.PDF saying "hybrid solutions may be allowed or required due to protocol standards"; i.e., the official statements indicate that NSA recognizes the security value of hybrids and will obey an IETF protocol standard requiring hybrids. The latter statement seems to have disappeared from the current page, but that isn't the same as renouncing it---things can disappear for pure reorganization reasons. ---D. J. Bernstein
- [lamps] P-384 in draft-ietf-lamps-pq-composite-ke… mjjenki@cyber.nsa.gov
- [lamps] Re: P-384 in draft-ietf-lamps-pq-composit… Mike Ounsworth
- [lamps] Re: P-384 in draft-ietf-lamps-pq-composit… D. J. Bernstein
- [lamps] Re: P-384 in draft-ietf-lamps-pq-composit… D. J. Bernstein