Re: [spring] draft-ginsberg-spring-conflict-resolution

[<[e-mail]>]

Hi Robert,

Regarding SRGB management, it’s really a design choice. There was already some discussion in the past.
If people/implementations uses a global SRGB which is agnostic to protocols, cross protocol validation does not really make sense.
If people/implementations uses per protocol SRGB, cross protocol validation makes sense.
I do not see a real use case for the partial overlapping between protocols.

I agree with you that using a common SRGB for all protocols works well and only SID conflict management in necessary in this case.

Brgds,

Stephane


From: [e-mail] [mailto:[e-mail]] On Behalf Of Robert Raszuk
Sent: Thursday, January 07, 2016 17:19
To: LITKOWSKI Stephane SCE/OINIS
Cc: Les Ginsberg (ginsberg); DECRAENE Bruno IMT/OLN; [e-mail]
Subject: Re: [spring] draft-ginsberg-spring-conflict-resolution

Hi Stephane,

> For example, if user tries to configure a BGP SRGB that
> overlaps with ISIS SRGB

Can you elaborate why that would be a bad thing to have two protocols advertise even not partially overlapping but identical SRGB from a given node ?

Also while we are at the node doing the check during configuration let's do not forget that not all configurations these days are real time and inline. To add concepts of forward referencing are also used which may allow on purpose to configure overlapping blocks before even given IGP (or protocol in general) is activated on any interface.

Best,
r.













On Thu, Jan 7, 2016 at 5:12 PM, <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>> wrote:
Hi,

[Les:] I am not proposing that we do cross-protocol validation of SRGBs. This would indeed increase the complexity and I am not convinced we would gain much.
SID conflict detection is a different matter - there we do indeed want to include all protocols.

[SLI] IMO, complexity of SRGB cross protocol validation  depends on how the implementation is done. The SRGB may or may not really be owned by the protocol directly. Protocol just do the advertisement, but SRGB may be owned by SR that may do suballocation for a particular protocol. That really depends on how it has been coded. I'm not sure that in Cisco implementation that ISIS requests label range directly from the label manager ? If "SR process" owns all the labels and just receive requests from protocols to reserve a particular SRGB, it has the global view and can manage overlap easily. For example, if user tries to configure a BGP SRGB that overlaps with ISIS SRGB, it can be easily refused by the SR process.

So we go back to the question of the requirements ... I think it would be really helpful that the WG agree on the requirement before talking about solutions.


-----Original Message-----
From: Les Ginsberg (ginsberg) [mailto:[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>]
Sent: Thursday, January 07, 2016 00:03
To: DECRAENE Bruno IMT/OLN; LITKOWSKI Stephane SCE/OINIS
Cc: [e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: draft-ginsberg-spring-conflict-resolution

Bruno -

I think there are two questions for me below - look for my answers inline.
Let me know if I missed anything.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]> [mailto:[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>]
> Sent: Wednesday, January 06, 2016 10:04 AM
> To: LITKOWSKI Stephane SCE/OINIS
> Cc: [e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>; Les Ginsberg (ginsberg)
> Subject: RE: draft-ginsberg-spring-conflict-resolution
>
> Hi Stéphane,
>
> Many thanks for contributing on this subject and for your comments.
>
> Please see inline [Bruno]
> Les, there is a specific question for you at the penultimate comment.
>
> I'll send an updated text and diff in a few days, after considering
> comments from currently unread emails.
>
> Bruno
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: LITKOWSKI Stephane SCE/OINIS
> > Sent: Monday, January 04, 2016 9:41 AM
> > To: DECRAENE Bruno IMT/OLN; [e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>; Les Ginsberg (ginsberg)
> > Subject: RE: draft-ginsberg-spring-conflict-resolution
> >
> > Hi Bruno,
> >
> > And best wishes all for this new year.
> >
> >
> > It seems that posting your txt back as attachment to the list does
> > not work so I will put my comments on the text directly in the email :
>
> [Bruno] sorry for the inconvenience. To avoid commenting twice, you
> could have copy / past the .txt attachment into the email body.
>
>
> > - In §2.2 : you keep the statement "The following ranges are used:"
> > empty, may be it would be better to change with something like :
> > "None of the ranges are used in this case"
>
> [Bruno] This is already spelled out lines above "In case of conflicts,
> all the ranges advertised are invalidated and dropped."
> But I see what you mean. On the other hand, the goal was to have a
> short summary to allow comparison between options.
> Currently I've changed to
> "The following ranges are used:
>       <none>"
>
> But any other option is welcomed
>
>
> > - §2.6 : It should be mentioned that this kind of behavior should
> > never happen because the sender must have local configuration
> > procedures to avoid this kind of behavior.
>
> Added: These SRGB ranges are advertised by a single node. As per
> [SR-IS-IS], a node MUST not advertise overlapping SRGB ranges. Hence a
> SRGB range conflict means a bug in the implementation of the originator.
>
> > But in case there is something going wrong and such advertisement is
> > received, routers must have a consistent behavior.
> > IMO, as the local implementation must avoid this kind of
> > advertisement (and I think we need to state this somewhere),
>
> [Bruno] I agree with you. I think this should be mentioned in §2.7
> "Discussion" rather than in §2.6. I propose to add:
> "These SRGB ranges are advertised by a single node. As per [SR-IS-IS],
> a node MUST not advertise overlapping SRGB ranges. Hence a SRGB range
> conflict means a bug in the implementation of the originator. However,
> bugs happen and we need a consistent error handling behaviour across
> the network to minimize mis-routing and to allow ingress to know the
> state of the network and act upon (e.g. reroute around the bug)"
>
> > drop all
> > sounds the best option because as this might be a bug, nothing says
> > that the forwarding is correctly setup on the node sending the bad
> advertisement.
>
> [Bruno] At this point in time, I would rather write down the pro&con
> of each option, in order to allow technical discussion, refinement and
> hopefully drive the discussion toward consensus.
> Personally, as of today, I would favor either "Drop all" or "Drop from conflict".
> The latter have the nice property that, assuming that the network was
> running correctly before, the issue is with the added SRGB range which
> may be expected to be added to allow for future growth. i.e. not currently used.
> So this seems overkill to drop all traffic, for a SRGB range which has
> been added and is not even used by global SIDs.
>
>
> > - §3. : IGP LSDB may be too restrictive, as depending of the label
> management
> >    implementation, there might be cross protocol conflicts of SIDs.
>
> [Bruno] Agreed. But:
> - this is a text from Les, I'll leave the resolution to Les
> - I'd rather avoid making the issue more complex, while we still can't
> agree on conflict resolution within a protocol.
>

[Les:] I am not proposing that we do cross-protocol validation of SRGBs. This would indeed increase the complexity and I am not convinced we would gain much.
SID conflict detection is a different matter - there we do indeed want to include all protocols.


> >
> > - §3.2.1 :
> > [SLI] Maybe we should mention that this kind of conflict has a "limited"
> impact.
> > On the LSR, we have more LFIB consumption but no traffic impact, as
> > we are creating multiple parallel LSPs towards the same destination.
> > At the iLSR side, there might be some churn in the FIB (IP to MPLS
> > entry) as it will have to choose one or the other advertisement in
> > order to program the entry.
>
> [Bruno] Agreed. Good point thanks.
> Added in 3.2.1 (1 prefix, multiple SIDs): "The consequences of this
> conflict is that multiple MPLS FIB entries would be programmed for a single IP Prefix.
> This has no impact on the traffic but use more MPLS FIB entries, which
> may or not be problematic  for the network equipments."
>
>
> > - §3.2.2 :
> > [SLI] As previous comment, we may need to mention the impact of such
> > conflict : inconsistent routing (even possible loops)  if there is
> > disagreement between routers (LSRs).
>
> [Bruno] Agreed. Good point thanks.
> Added in 3.2.2 (1 SID, multiple prefixes): " The consequences of this
> conflict is that in the absence of conflict resolution two IP prefixes
> would be forwarded to the same destination. If they are part of the
> same FEC (Forwarding Equivalent Class), this is not an issue.
> Otherwise, this leads to mis-routing of a prefix to a wrong
> destination. In a VPN network, this may lead to VPN breach which is very problematic (even if the breach would be unidirectional only).
> In case of inconsistent conflict resolution across nodes, this may
> lead to persistent forwarding loops."
>
>
> > - §3.3 :
> > [SLI] We must mention, that traffic is dropped for the destination
> > affected by the conflict.
> > So if a new advertisement is received after a while leading to a
> > conflict, traffic will be blackholed for the affected destination
>
> [Bruno] From an editorial standpoint, I have chosen to describe the
> options from a specification standpoint. So that those sections should
> be non controvertials.
> Discussion is done in §3.6 "Discussion".
>
> From a technical standpoint, I agree with you and this is discussed in
> 3.6.2 'Network operation"
>
> >which is IMO not a good option.
> [Bruno] Personally, I agree with you. I would even say that this is
> not acceptable that a single typo in a MS advertisement shut down half
> of the network.
> But at this point in the document and discussion, I'd rather stick to
> facts and remove opinions.
>
> > - §3.4 :
> > [SLI] What happens if BGP sends the same SID ?
>
> [Bruno] At this point, I'm focusing to conflict within a single
> protocol. Given the disagreements, I'd rather reduce the scope to simplify.
> But I agree with you that this is a valid question.
>
> >
> > -§3.5 :
> >    [SLI] Maybe we need to remind that we already have a tiebreaking
> > rule between MS entries and Prefix SIDs :
> >    "For a given prefix, if both a MS entry with its Prefix-SID Sub-TLV
> >    and a Prefix TLV (e.g.: TLV135) with its Prefix-SID are received, the
> >    Prefix-SID advertised within the Prefix TLV MUST be preferred while
> >    the MS entry MUST be ignored."
> >
> >    [SLI] Giving a preference to MS entries may be a very good idea from
> >    an operational point of view, especially if someone wants to migrate
> >    mappings from one range to another for example. This discussion is out of
> >    scope but we may need to think about it.
>
> [Bruno] Excellent point. But as the resolutions rules proposed in
> draft- ginsberg-spring-conflict-resolution do not seem achieve the
> above goal, I had assume that this current text from
> draft-ietf-isis-segment-routing- extensions would be removed and
> replaced by the resolutions rules described in  draft-ginsberg-spring-conflict-resolution.
> Les, could you please clarify this point?
>
[Les:] I "think" you are referring to this text from the IS-IS draft (Section 2.4.5):

" For a given prefix, if both a MS entry with its Prefix-SID Sub-TLV
   and a Prefix TLV (e.g.: TLV135) with its Prefix-SID are received, the
   Prefix-SID advertised within the Prefix TLV MUST be preferred while
   the MS entry MUST be ignored."

This text should be removed - the protocol drafts should simply reference the spring-conflict-resolution draft. Indeed one of the motivations for spring-conflict-resolution draft is to unblock the protocol drafts and isolate the conflict resolution to a single common draft. This means the protocol drafts MUST be agnostic and if they say anything at all it would be to reference spring-conflict-resolution draft.

   Les


>
> > - there are multiple small typo issues in SRGB examples : e.g. Range
> > 3: (500,
> > 5990 <=> Range 3: (500, 599) ; Range 1: (100, 199] <=> Range 1:
> > (100,
> > 199)
>
> [Bruno] Thanks. Fixed. (at least I'm consistent in my typos ;-) (which
> is expected when copy/pasting) )
>
>
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: spring [mailto:[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>] On Behalf Of
> > [e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>
> > Sent: Thursday, December 17, 2015 18:27
> > To: [e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>; Les Ginsberg (ginsberg)
> > Subject: [spring] draft-ginsberg-spring-conflict-resolution
> >
> > Hi Les, authors, WG
> >
> > As an individual contributor, please find below some more detailed
> > comments and considerations on the draft.
> >
> > Following the "please send text" request expressed during the
> > meeting, please find enclosed some proposed text. (xml, txt, diff
> > versus public
> version).
> >
> > I wished I had sent this before, but writing the text took longer
> > than
> expected.
> > BTW I still not happy with my text, but hopefully current text  (or
> > at least the table of content) should be enough to give an idea on
> > the direction I have in mind.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Regards,
> > Bruno
> >
> > __
> > As previous expressed on the mailing list and during the meeting,
> > I'm especially concerned with Mapping Server advertisement where a
> > single typo/bug can conflict with many/all SIDs in the network. In
> > this case, I don't think that dropping all traffic to those SIDs is a desirable option.
> > One option is to prefer individual advertisement (prefix SID) over
> > general ones (Mapping Server). i.e. more specific wins. Note that
> > this is the approach currently taken by the IS-IS draft:
> > "   For a given prefix, if both a MS entry with its Prefix-SID Sub-TLV
> >    and a Prefix TLV (e.g.: TLV135) with its Prefix-SID are received, the
> >    Prefix-SID advertised within the Prefix TLV MUST be preferred while
> >    the MS entry MUST be ignored."
> >
> > We can probably assume that this is already implemented (by
> > compliant implementations), so I'm not sure to see the value of
> > changing existing implementations if this is to get a more
> > disruptive result for the
> network.
> > __
> > Regarding SID conflict, the current draft proposes to drop all
> > conflicting information.
> > Looking at the big picture, this means: the more (Mapping Server)
> > redundancy, the more risk of conflict, the less availability.
> > This is probably not the property that we are looking for.
> > __
> >
> > I support the comment to consider the error handling work "recently"
> > done in the IDR WG. IMHO, WG and authors did a good work on such a
> > difficult subject (just like for SID conflicts, at the beginning
> > opinions were diverse, and everyone had good reasons).
> > I'm not sure how much reading the end result (RFC 7606) helps in
> > understanding all the trade-off considered during the work. Reading
> > the operational requirements, given that the IGP infrastructure is
> > probably even more important than BGP for network
> > operators/clients/traffic, it may be worthwhile to read BGP error
> > handling operation requirements (
> > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-grow-ops-reqs-for-bgp-error-h
> > an
> > dling-07
> > ) Discussion with the people involved may help. FYI, as for me, the
> > point I learnt are:
> > - when we detect an error on the receiving side, there is a bug. In
> > general, it's difficult to know whether the bug is on the sending
> > side or the
> receiving side.
> > Clearly, for the receiving side, the first reaction is to blame the
> > sending
> side.
> > For each error, it's useful to consider both options (i.e. error may
> > be on my/receiving side). And even if the error is on the sending
> > side, the receiver may run the same implementation (so "sender is
> > too buggy to live" may apply to your own implementation i.e. the
> > receiving
> side).
> > - when we detect an error, it's useful to consider all possible
> > causes and consequences before deciding to make things worse (e.g.
> > killing a session/transit node/prefix). In particular, there may not
> > be a single error but many (SIDs, source routers (especially if the
> > error is on the receiving side)). So it's useful to consider that
> > the decision may be
> multiplied 10 or 100 times.
> >
> > Clearly there are difference between IGP & BGP: usually more
> > redundancy in BGP (more signaling path (redundant RR) and more AS
> > exit points), more prefixes hence the cost of dropping one prefix is
> > relatively less important, two-way point to point signaling channel,
> > messages are flooded unchanged so people are less likely to shoot
> > the messenger and errors are less likely to be multiplied during propagation....
> >
> > __
> > "An
> >    alternative is to ensure at the nodes which originate these
> >    advertisements that no such overlap is allowed to be configured.
> >    Such overlaps can then be considered as a conflict if they are
> >    received.  This allows a simpler and more efficient implementation of
> >    the database.  This is the approach assumed in this document."
> >
> > I encourage implementation to check the configurations before
> > accepting
> it.
> > And to check its routing advertisement before sending it. I would
> > assume that state of the art implementation will do it. Yet, I don't
> > think it should be considered as an excuse to avoid error handling
> > at the
> protocol level.
> > BTW, I'm not sure how much you expect implementation checks to be
> done
> > before committing/sending. e.g. If an operator configure a range on
> > the SRMS, and this ranges conflict with existing SID advertised by
> > other nodes, would you expect the implementation to detect such
> > conflict and reject the configuration?
> > More generally, if we assume some extensive checks by
> > implementations before committing/sending, and that given such
> > assumption we define a light error handling, I'd like such
> > assumptions be documented in the document and probably be made
> > normative (since the receiving side, is expected a specific behavior from the sending side, this is normative).
> > Also "implementation of the database" is implementation dependent
> > and is probably just one aspect of the implementation simplicity/efficiency.
> > And speaking for myself, simplicity/efficiency/availability of 100s
> > networks running segment routing significantly out weight the
> > "simplicity and efficiency" of one to ten implementations.
> >
> > __
> > "The occurrence of conflicts is
> >           easily diagnosed from the behavior of the network as the forwarding
> >           of traffic which would, in the absence of conflicts, utilize
> >           segments no longer does so."
> >
> > I don't think that we need to kill customer's traffic to raise
> > awareness of the network operator. And I don't support the idea that
> > the more traffic you kill, the easier and faster the error is resolved.
> > If you need to raise an error, please do so! e.g. in logs, syslogs,
> > SNMP traps, netconf event notification... Dropping the traffic is
> > not providing more information, it is increasing the pressure and
> > hence the probability of quick erroneous actions. Not to mention
> > that as all services will run over packet networks, and as there is
> > a pressure to reduce costs we may have a single converged network for all services.
> > In this case, there is a chance that if the network is down, some
> > people/tools/equipment may not be reached anymore/easily. e.g.
> > calling people on their cell phone does not work when the packet
> > network is
> down.
> >
> > __
> > "   The downside of ignoring conflicting entries is that forwarding of
> >    all packets with destinations covered by the conflicting entries will
> >    always be negatively impacted."
> >
> > Let's call a spade a spade. (btw, I prefer the French version
> > :s/spade/cat which nowadays should be more popular on the Internet
> > ;-)
> > ) The traffic is not "negatively impacted", the traffic is "dropped".
> > And for all services/customers/BGP routes using theses SIDs.
> >
> > __
> > 3.2.2.  Preference Algorithm
> > [...]
> > "This approach requires that conflicting entries first be identified"
> >
> > All approach requires conflicting entries to be identified. This is
> > not a drawback of the "preference algorithm"
> >
> > "Based on which  entry is preferred this in turn may impact what
> > other entries are  considered in conflict"
> >
> > This is not additional rule/work. This is applying the same
> > rule/algo to subsequent entries.
> > Also, from the network perspective, in the end, this will not drop
> > more entries than the "ignore rule", quite the contrary.
> >
> > "Based on
> >           which entry is preferred this in turn may impact what other entries
> >           are considered in conflict i.e. if A conflicts with B and B
> >           conflicts with C - it is possible that A does NOT conflict with C.
> >           Hence if as a result of the evaluation of the conflict between A and
> >           B, entry B is not used the conflict between B and C will not be
> >           considered."
> >
> > I'm not sure to get what is implied. As A and B conflicts and B and
> > C conflicts, with "ignore conflicting entries", I would assume that
> > all A, B, C be ignored, no? Or do you plan to ignore conflicting
> > entries until there is no conflict? In which case we would only
> > remove one of the two conflicting entries and end up with a
> > "preference" resolution 'and never drop both conflicting entries
> > since once we drop the first, there is no more conflict) ___
> >
> >
> >
> >
> __________________________________________________________
> __
> >
> __________________________________________________________
> __
> > _
> >
> > Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations
> > confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc pas etre
> > diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu
> > ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler a l'expediteur et le
> > detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages electroniques
> > etant susceptibles d'alteration, Orange decline toute responsabilite
> > si ce message a ete altere,
> deforme ou falsifie. Merci.
> >
> > This message and its attachments may contain confidential or
> > privileged information that may be protected by law; they should not
> > be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.
> > If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender
> > and delete this message and its attachments.
> > As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that
> > have been modified, changed or falsified.
> > Thank you.
>
>
> __________________________________________________________
> __________________________________________________________
> _____
>
> Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations
> confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc pas etre diffuses,
> exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce message
> par erreur, veuillez le signaler a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi
> que les pieces jointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles
> d'alteration, Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.
>
> This message and its attachments may contain confidential or
> privileged information that may be protected by law; they should not
> be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.
> If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and
> delete this message and its attachments.
> As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have
> been modified, changed or falsified.
> Thank you.

_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc
pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,
Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.

This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged information that may be protected by law;
they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.
If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and delete this message and its attachments.
As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been modified, changed or falsified.
Thank you.

_______________________________________________
spring mailing list
[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring


_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc
pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,
Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.

This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged information that may be protected by law;
they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.
If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and delete this message and its attachments.
As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been modified, changed or falsified.
Thank you.