Re: [tcpm] [tsvwg] L4S status tracking
Ingemar Johansson S <ingemar.s.johansson@ericsson.com> Fri, 08 November 2019 17:04 UTC
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From: Ingemar Johansson S <ingemar.s.johansson@ericsson.com>
To: Sebastian Moeller <moeller0@gmx.de>, Ingemar Johansson S <ingemar.s.johansson=40ericsson.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, "Michael.Scharf@hs-esslingen.de" <Michael.Scharf@hs-esslingen.de>, "4bone@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net" <4bone@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net>
CC: "tcpm@ietf.org" <tcpm@ietf.org>, "tsvwg@ietf.org" <tsvwg@ietf.org>, Ingemar Johansson S <ingemar.s.johansson@ericsson.com>
Thread-Topic: [tsvwg] [tcpm] L4S status tracking
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Date: Fri, 08 Nov 2019 17:04:20 +0000
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Subject: Re: [tcpm] [tsvwg] L4S status tracking
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Hi Sebastian I clearly mentioned that I would prefer that the term "classic" is kept, the earth will likely continue to spin around its axis even if it is changed to something else 😊. But then it should be something that the group can agree on, I don't however see any consensus. /Ingemar > -----Original Message----- > From: Sebastian Moeller <moeller0@gmx.de> > Sent: den 6 november 2019 08:08 > To: Ingemar Johansson S > <ingemar.s.johansson=40ericsson.com@dmarc.ietf.org>; Michael.Scharf@hs- > esslingen.de; 4bone@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net > Cc: Ingemar Johansson S <ingemar.s.johansson@ericsson.com>; tcpm@ietf.org; > tsvwg@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [tsvwg] [tcpm] L4S status tracking > > Hi Ingmar, > > IMHO this is a slippery slope argument. Because if minor changes to the naming > are "impossible" how will changed to the underlying concepts and methods be > acceptable to you. Because surely these other organizations already committed > to what is proposed to the IETF as an experiment? > My gripe with the classic moniker is that this term is not outcome neutral. What > I mean is, that while in itself not necessarily negative, it implies that the new kid > on the block is the way into the future, while the classic version should head into > it's well-deserved retirement. And on the facts this simply is not settled or > accepted in the case of L4S. IMHO the testing published by the L4S/RITE folks > always tested conditions that are very favorable to L4S and completely ignored > to reach out to the actual user community interested in low latency under load. > It might well be that the L4S approach might also do well in a true stress test (bi- > directiomal saturation on a asymmetric path with bursty cross traffic for > starters), but I would like to see numbers first. And the L4S sce back-off data > posted to this list in the path seems to indicate that L4S still has open ends that > IMHO need addressing (independent of whether 3GPP likes this or not). > > Best Regards > Sebastian > > On November 6, 2019 7:12:39 AM GMT+01:00, Ingemar Johansson S > <ingemar.s.johansson=40ericsson.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote: > >Hi > > > >I would prefer that the term "Classic" is kept. > >L4S is not anymore an IETF only matter. Work is ongoing to get support > >for L4S in 3GPP for 5G and the input papers there use the term classic. > >It is of course too late for changing classic to something else, but > >then it is appreciated that It is something that the group can agree on > >and I don't see that we are there, therefore it is better to stick to > >"classic". > >And to me the term "classic" does not sound negative. > > > >/Ingemar > > > >> Message: 3 > >> Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2019 00:22:44 +0000 > >> From: Bob Briscoe <ietf@bobbriscoe.net> > >> To: "Scharf, Michael" <Michael.Scharf@hs-esslingen.de>, "Rodney W. > >> Grimes" <4bone@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net> > >> Cc: Wesley Eddy <wes@mti-systems.com>, "tsvwg@ietf.org" > >> <tsvwg@ietf.org>, "tcpm@ietf.org" <tcpm@ietf.org> > >> Subject: Re: [tcpm] [tsvwg] L4S status tracking > >> Message-ID: <7f1aa4ae-05d6-b07c-50b0-ab899c5c30b7@bobbriscoe.net> > >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"; Format="flowed" > >> > >> Michael, Rod, > >> > >> Altho non-L4S is a reasonable idea, I think it has more of a negative > >connotation > >> than classic. For instance, consider describing Android phones as > >non-iPhones. > >> > >> Also, in the ecn-l4s-id draft, we introduce the possibility that some > >operators > >> might classify non-L4S traffic (DNS, VoIP, EF, NQB, etc) into the > >same > >queue as > >> L4S traffic (and we say that in this case the queue would be called > >the > >Low > >> Latency queue). This shows that the term non-L4S is not a good choice > >for > >a > >> name, because the words it is made from already give it a meaning of > >its > >own > >> that conflicts with the definition you want it to have in certain > >contexts. > >> > >> For example, if you did define the name "non-iPhone" to mean phones > >such > >as > >> Android, Windows, etc, then you would expect the phrase "non-iPhone > >knock- > >> off products" to mean "fake Android and Windows phones". However the > >> constituent elements "non" and "iPhone" already have a meaning of > >their > >own, > >> so in the context of this phrase, it means "fake iPhones", which is > >the > >opposite > >> of what you wanted. > >> > >> The term Classic for the non-L4S service, its queue, its traffic, its > >congestion > >> control, etc. is defined in the terminology section of the drafts, so > >I > >think it's > >> best to live with this - it's not a significant problem. Indeed, it > >has > >become widely > >> used and widely understood since 2015, and changing it to non-L4S now > >would > >> cause unnecessary confusion. > >> > >> > >> > >> Bob > >> > >> > >> > >> On 04/11/2019 19:21, Scharf, Michael wrote: > >> > > >> > I agree. ?non-L4S? may be even better. > >> > > >> > Michael > >> > > >> > *Von: *Rodney W. Grimes <mailto:4bone@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net> > >> > *Gesendet: *Montag, 4. November 2019 20:17 > >> > *An: *Scharf, Michael <mailto:Michael.Scharf@hs-esslingen.de> > >> > *Cc: *Bob Briscoe <mailto:ietf@bobbriscoe.net>; Wesley Eddy > >> > <mailto:wes@mti-systems.com>; tsvwg@ietf.org > ><mailto:tsvwg@ietf.org>; > >> > tcpm@ietf.org <mailto:tcpm@ietf.org> > >> > *Betreff: *Re: [tcpm] [tsvwg] L4S status tracking > >> > > >> > > You can e.g. use ?non-L4S-enabled TCP?. > >> > > > >> > > Terminology does matter to me given that I strongly disagree to > >any > >> > use of ?marketing language? when it comes to TCP. > >> > > >> > My concern here of use of terms like, legacy, classic, new, old is > >> > that they are pretty much all of the relative from and thus > >ambiguous > >> > over time. > >> > > >> > newReno is new only relative to Reno, that is fairly clear, but if > >I > >> > said newTCP or oldTCP with what frame should the reference be > >> > evaluated. > >> > > >> > I believe in the case of L4S the time invariant term would be, as > >> > Michael suggests above, "non-L4S".?? Note that enabled for me is a > >> > noise word in this context, and TCP may or may not be needed > >depending > >> > on context, but for literal replacement of Legacy or Classic > >"non-L4S" > >> > is invariant over time. > >> > > >> > Rod > >> > > >> > > Michael > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > Von: Bob Briscoe<mailto:ietf@bobbriscoe.net> > >> > > Gesendet: Montag, 4. November 2019 19:09 > >> > > An: Scharf, Michael<mailto:Michael.Scharf@hs-esslingen.de>; > >Wesley > >> > Eddy<mailto:wes@mti-systems.com>; > >> > tsvwg@ietf.org<mailto:tsvwg@ietf.org> > >> > > Cc: tcpm@ietf.org<mailto:tcpm@ietf.org> > >> > > Betreff: Re: [tcpm] [tsvwg] L4S status tracking > >> > > > >> > > Michael, > >> > > > >> > > Previously, I have been told not to use the term standard for > >RFCs > >> > that are not standards. RFC5681 is 'only' a draft standard. This is > >> > why, in the IETF at least, I avoid using the term "standard TCP > >> > congestion control". I generally call it Reno when referring to the > >> > congestion control. > >> > > > >> > > I have never, to my knowledge, used the term classic TCP, or > >classic > >> > TCP congestion control. > >> > > > >> > > And I rarely use the term legacy, and if I do I'm happy to have > >> > alternatives suggested. > >> > > > >> > > I've checked the L4S drafts, and there is one phrase that I shall > >> > leave in ecn-l4s-id: "the traditional TCP Reno additive increase", > >> > because this is correctly used to mean the traditional increase (in > >> > numerous AIMD CCs), not traditional TCP. There was one other > >> > occurrence of "traditional TCP senders" in a whole para in an > >appendix > >> > that has just been deleted anyway. And in aqm-dualq-coupled there > >was > >> > one "legacy TCP flows" (changed to "Classic traffic" now in my > >local > >> > copy, using the defined term in all the L4S drafts). > >> > > > >> > > l4s-arch is getting a complete make-over for terminology, so I > >will > >> > check that next. > >> > > > >> > > inline... > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > On 23/08/2019 15:01, Scharf, Michael wrote: > >> > > > >> > > Hi Wes, > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > I?d like to add a smaller item that is mostly editorial and can > >> > hopefully be sorted just out by re-wording, albeit it may require a > >> > careful analysis of all documents. > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > As already noted in > >> > https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/tsvwg/zZkYZKF- > >> hDvWO3I5MudwpNkKyH > >> > > >Y<https://mailarchive..ietf.org/arch/msg/tsvwg/zZkYZKF-hDvWO3I5MudwpNk > >> > KyHY> , I object to the terms ?traditional TCP? and also ?classic > >TCP? > >> > or ?legacy? TCP when referring to a TCP implementation according to > >> > IETF standards-track RFCs. > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > To me as a non-native native speaker, all these terms have a > >> > negative connotation. I also think this language is typical to > >> > marketing material. > >> > > > >> > > You're entitled to your opinion but, as a native speaker, I don't > >> > think 'classic' or 'traditional' are particularly pejorative, tho > >they > >> > can be when used in a context that intends them to be. They also > >mean > >> > "stood the test of time". I find 'legacy' has a connotation of > >> > marketing-speak, but it's not that bad. > >> > > > >> > > This is an enduring problem when trying to improve on the good > >work > >> > that other people have done before you (which is the context of > >> > everything we are doing). We need a word that distinguishes the old > >> > from the new, but we don't want to completely trash the thing that > >has > >> > already been successful, but had its day. > >> > > > >> > > Nonetheless, it is also important not to be too precious about > >past > >> > work. We all recognize that Reno TCP is unscalable and has > >problems. > >> > IMO, it is OK to describe technologies that have had their time > >with > >> > negative connotations. Indeed, you have been an author (with me) of > >an > >> > RFC on open issues in congestion control. > >> > > > >> > > I notice you haven't suggested an alternative term for "the > >thing(s) > >> > we are trying to improve on". Not surprising, because it's > >difficult. > >> > > > >> > > When we (the L4S developers) were first looking for a term for > >the > >> > non-L4S queue and the non-L4S service, we didn't want to use > >'legacy' > >> > for the above reasons, but we did want to imply pre-existing, so we > >> > decided on 'classic', which we all felt had a generally neutral > >> > connotation, but said what we meant. > >> > > > >> > > Finally, I do not want this issue to take up any time that would > >> > detract from technical issues. > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > Bob > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > My prefered term when referring to TCP according to > >standards-track > >> > specification is ?standard TCP?. I would also be fine with other > >terms > >> > as long as they are neutral and make clear that experiments do not > >> > replace, deprecate, or outperform standards. > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > Similarly, I think that term such as ?classic? is not appropriate > >> > for the TCP standard congestion control (?Reno?). As of today, this > >is > >> > the TCP congestion control algorithm on standards track that has > >IETF > >> > consensus. The term in the TCPM charter is ?TCP standard congestion > >> > control?. I also think that terms such as ?Reno-compatible? or the > >> > like would be neutral. > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > Note that I do not object to the terms ?classic ECN?, ?legacy > >ECN?, > >> > ?legacy AQM? or the like, i.e., if the context is ECN and not > >> > specifically TCP or the TCP congestion control. I believe it is up > >to > >> > the TSVWG do decide if this term shall be used for compliance to > >RFC > >> > 3168. I have no strong opinion on that. As far as I can see, most > >use > >> > of the term ?classic? is in this context and I don?t ask for > >changes > >> > in those cases. > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > Some use of the term ?Classic Service? may also require careful > >> > review to clearly separate it from TCP Standard behavior. > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > Note that some use of the term ?Classic TCP? would probably also > >> > apply to ?Classic QUIC? once the QUIC standard is finished. To me > >as a > >> > non-native speaker, it would be really strange to use the term > >> > ?classic? in the context of a brand-new transport protocol. IMHO in > >> > that case the term ?classic? would be even more confusing. > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > I also add the TCPM list in CC to ensure consistency. > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > Thanks > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > Michael (with no hat) > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > Von: Wesley Eddy<mailto:wes@mti-systems.com> > >> > > Gesendet: Sonntag, 11. August 2019 07:08 > >> > > An: tsvwg@ietf.org<mailto:tsvwg@ietf.org> > >> > > Betreff: [tsvwg] L4S status tracking > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > I created tickets in the TSVWG "trac" tool in order to help keep > >> > > track of the individual things that look like they should be > >> > > addressed in progressing L4S document set: > >> > > > >> > > > >https://trac.ietf.org/trac/tsvwg/report/1?sort=ticket&asc=1&page=1 > >> > > > >> > > I'll try to update these based on the ongoing discussions, > >updates, > >> > > etc., but it will make it very easy if you happen to mention the > >> > > ticket numbers or some key words in threads and messages, when > >> significant. > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > _______________________________________________ > >> > > tcpm mailing list > >> > > tcpm@ietf.org<mailto:tcpm@ietf.org> > >> > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tcpm > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > -- > >> > > > >> > ________________________________________________________________ > >> > > Bob Briscoe > >> > > > >https://protect2.fireeye.com/v1/url?k=9e3cf770-c2e8fb81-9e3cb7eb-864 > >> > > 685b2085c-4ba6a1960c4f3e7a&q=1&e=bf49c0f0-380b-42d4-93a2- > >> 9ebedff802e > >> > > 0&u=http%3A%2F%2Fbobbriscoe.net%2F > >> > > >> > > _______________________________________________ > >> > > tcpm mailing list > >> > > tcpm@ietf.org > >> > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tcpm > >> > > >> > -- > >> > Rod Grimes rgrimes@freebsd.org > >> > >> -- > >> > ________________________________________________________________ > >> Bob Briscoe > >https://protect2.fireeye.com/v1/url?k=861241a8- > >> dac64d59-86120133-864685b2085c-16120a27ab4a751a&q=1&e=bf49c0f0- > >> 380b-42d4-93a2-9ebedff802e0&u=http%3A%2F%2Fbobbriscoe.net%2F > >> > >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was > >> scrubbed... > >> URL: > >> > ><https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/tcpm/attachments/20191106/de7 > >97 > >> fd1/attachment.html> > >> > >> ------------------------------ > >> > >> Subject: Digest Footer > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> tcpm mailing list > >> tcpm@ietf.org > >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tcpm > >> > >> > >> ------------------------------ > >> > >> End of tcpm Digest, Vol 187, Issue 15 > >> ************************************* > > -- > Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
- Re: [tcpm] [tsvwg] L4S status tracking Scharf, Michael
- Re: [tcpm] [tsvwg] L4S status tracking Black, David
- Re: [tcpm] [tsvwg] L4S status tracking Wesley Eddy
- Re: [tcpm] [tsvwg] L4S status tracking Bob Briscoe
- Re: [tcpm] [tsvwg] L4S status tracking Scharf, Michael
- Re: [tcpm] [tsvwg] L4S status tracking Rodney W. Grimes
- Re: [tcpm] [tsvwg] L4S status tracking Scharf, Michael
- Re: [tcpm] [tsvwg] L4S status tracking Scharf, Michael
- Re: [tcpm] [tsvwg] L4S status tracking Sebastian Moeller
- Re: [tcpm] [tsvwg] L4S status tracking Scharf, Michael
- Re: [tcpm] [tsvwg] L4S status tracking Bob Briscoe
- Re: [tcpm] [tsvwg] L4S status tracking Ingemar Johansson S
- Re: [tcpm] [tsvwg] L4S status tracking Sebastian Moeller
- Re: [tcpm] [tsvwg] L4S status tracking Scharf, Michael
- Re: [tcpm] [tsvwg] L4S status tracking Sebastian Moeller
- Re: [tcpm] [tsvwg] L4S status tracking Dave Taht
- Re: [tcpm] [tsvwg] L4S status tracking Bob Briscoe
- Re: [tcpm] [tsvwg] L4S status tracking Bob Briscoe
- Re: [tcpm] [tsvwg] L4S status tracking Rodney W. Grimes
- Re: [tcpm] [tsvwg] L4S status tracking Scharf, Michael
- Re: [tcpm] [tsvwg] L4S status tracking Wesley Eddy
- Re: [tcpm] [tsvwg] L4S status tracking Sebastian Moeller
- Re: [tcpm] [tsvwg] L4S status tracking Scharf, Michael
- Re: [tcpm] [tsvwg] L4S status tracking Ingemar Johansson S
- Re: [tcpm] [tsvwg] L4S status tracking Gorry Fairhurst
- Re: [tcpm] [tsvwg] L4S status tracking Gorry Fairhurst
- Re: [tcpm] [tsvwg] L4S status tracking Scharf, Michael
- Re: [tcpm] [tsvwg] L4S status tracking Black, David
- Re: [tcpm] [tsvwg] L4S status tracking Scharf, Michael
- Re: [tcpm] [tsvwg] L4S status tracking Ingemar Johansson S
- Re: [tcpm] [tsvwg] L4S status tracking Scharf, Michael
- Re: [tcpm] [tsvwg] L4S status tracking Bob Briscoe
- Re: [tcpm] [tsvwg] L4S status tracking Bob Briscoe
- Re: [tcpm] [tsvwg] L4S status tracking Bob Briscoe
- Re: [tcpm] [tsvwg] L4S status tracking Bob Briscoe
- Re: [tcpm] [tsvwg] L4S status tracking Sebastian Moeller
- Re: [tcpm] [tsvwg] L4S status tracking Scharf, Michael
- Re: [tcpm] [tsvwg] L4S status tracking Rodney W. Grimes
- Re: [tcpm] [tsvwg] L4S status tracking Bob Briscoe
- Re: [tcpm] [tsvwg] L4S status tracking Bob Briscoe
- Re: [tcpm] [tsvwg] L4S status tracking Scharf, Michael