Re: [tcpm] Progressing draft-ietf-tcpm-converters
Yuchung Cheng <ycheng@google.com> Fri, 24 May 2019 15:01 UTC
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From: Yuchung Cheng <ycheng@google.com>
Date: Fri, 24 May 2019 08:00:53 -0700
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To: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com
Cc: Olivier Bonaventure <olivier.bonaventure@tessares.net>, "tcpm@ietf.org Extensions" <tcpm@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [tcpm] Progressing draft-ietf-tcpm-converters
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On Thu, May 23, 2019 at 11:34 PM <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com> wrote: > > Hi Yuchung, > > Please see inline. > > Cheers, > Med > > > -----Message d'origine----- > > De : tcpm [mailto:tcpm-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Yuchung Cheng > > Envoyé : jeudi 23 mai 2019 18:38 > > À : Olivier Bonaventure > > Cc : tcpm@ietf.org Extensions > > Objet : Re: [tcpm] Progressing draft-ietf-tcpm-converters > > > > On Tue, May 21, 2019 at 4:52 AM Olivier Bonaventure > > <olivier.bonaventure@tessares.net> wrote: > > > > > > Yuchung, > > > > > > >> > > > >> We believe that a specialised TCP application should be allowed to > > use its own cookie inside the payload instead of relying on the TCP header > > to use fast open. The 0-RTT convert protocol is one example, but there > > could be others. Looking at other application layer protocols, I noticed > > that TLS1.3 (rfc8446) also includes a cookie which is mainly designed > > enable servers to get a confirmation of the reachability of the client IP > > addresses for DTLS, but the same approach could be used when TLS sends its > > initial data in the SYN as well. > > > >> > > > >> Another point that should be clarified in RFC7413 are how middleboxes > > should handle SYN packets containing a non-zero payload. According to > > RFC793, such packets are valid TCP packets. The TFO option, defined in > > RFC7314 is not and should not be considered as an indication that is > > required to “authorise” the utilisation of payload inside a SYN packet. > > During the Prague meeting, Christoph Paasch mentioned at the mike that > > they have one application that uses data inside the SYN and their > > measurements indicate that sending this SYN without the TFO option enables > > it to pass through more middleboxes than when the same SYN contains the > > TFO option. > > > >> > > > >> Another point is the socket API. Currently, Linux and MacOS decouple > > the transmission of data inside the SYN from the utilisation of the TFO > > option. This makes it possible for a client to send data inside the SYN > > without enabling TFO. On Windows, the API seems to force the utilisation > > of TFO when there is data in the SYN. As indicated earlier, RFC793 does > > not mandate the presence of the TFO to place data inside the SYN. > > > >> > > > >> The approach we are proposing has the benefits of RFC7413 but without > > its drawbacks. Moreover, given that RFC7413 is Experimental, we don't > > think that there is a harm if we proceed with the approach 0-rtt convert > > protocol while the IETF can further tweak and adjust the applicability > > scope of RFC7413. For example, an update can be proposed to RFC7413 to > > clarify that specialized application-level protocols could place cookie > > information in their payload and thus not use the TFO option. > > > > Just to confirm: you mean an API that > > > > let application sets the TFO cookie (on either server and client)? > > > > > > > > > No, we suggest to let specific applications use data in the SYN without > > using the TFO cookie. Those applications can manage their cookie inside > > the SYN payload if needed. Instead of having TFO cookies that are managed > > by the TCP stack and have limited size, those specialised protocols would > > use application-level cookies which can be longer and are managed by these > > application protocols. > > I see. though I suppose this requires changing RFC793 of not uploading > > the data to application until 3WHS completes. > > > > [Med] That constraint can be relaxed following a rationale similar to the one in RFC7413. > > Is there any particular reason why a change to RFC793 would be required here but not for RFC7413? It's an interesting question - RFC793 long allows data-in-SYN but requires data to be posted after handshake. RFC7413 relaxes that but also requires a cookie. So if we think this is an "extension" to TFO, then perhaps extends RFC7413 not changing RFC793? personally I do think that makes sense. IMO TFO implementation provides a generic way to do data-in-SYN. Application can use whatever they prefer to protect or optimize data-in-SYN. TFO cookie is just a default simple mechanism for application who finds that acceptable. > > > > > > > > otherwise obviously application can place any data in their TCP > > payload for its > > > > purposes. > > > > > > This is what we proposed in Prague, i.e. using data in the TCP SYN > > without the TFO option. > > > > > > > > > Olivier > > > -- > > > > > > > > > Disclaimer: https://www.tessares.net/mail-disclaimer/ > > > <https://www.tessares.net/mail-disclaimer/> > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > tcpm mailing list > > tcpm@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tcpm
- [tcpm] Progressing draft-ietf-tcpm-converters Olivier Bonaventure
- Re: [tcpm] Progressing draft-ietf-tcpm-converters Yuchung Cheng
- Re: [tcpm] Progressing draft-ietf-tcpm-converters Olivier Bonaventure
- Re: [tcpm] Progressing draft-ietf-tcpm-converters Yuchung Cheng
- Re: [tcpm] Progressing draft-ietf-tcpm-converters Yuchung Cheng
- Re: [tcpm] Progressing draft-ietf-tcpm-converters mohamed.boucadair
- Re: [tcpm] Progressing draft-ietf-tcpm-converters mohamed.boucadair
- Re: [tcpm] Progressing draft-ietf-tcpm-converters Praveen Balasubramanian
- Re: [tcpm] Progressing draft-ietf-tcpm-converters Yuchung Cheng
- Re: [tcpm] Progressing draft-ietf-tcpm-converters Joe Touch
- Re: [tcpm] Progressing draft-ietf-tcpm-converters mohamed.boucadair
- Re: [tcpm] Progressing draft-ietf-tcpm-converters mohamed.boucadair
- Re: [tcpm] Progressing draft-ietf-tcpm-converters Olivier Bonaventure
- Re: [tcpm] Progressing draft-ietf-tcpm-converters Praveen Balasubramanian
- Re: [tcpm] Progressing draft-ietf-tcpm-converters Yuchung Cheng
- Re: [tcpm] Progressing draft-ietf-tcpm-converters mohamed.boucadair
- Re: [tcpm] Progressing draft-ietf-tcpm-converters Jeremy Harris
- Re: [tcpm] Progressing draft-ietf-tcpm-converters Yuchung Cheng
- Re: [tcpm] Progressing draft-ietf-tcpm-converters Yuchung Cheng
- Re: [tcpm] Progressing draft-ietf-tcpm-converters Jeremy Harris
- Re: [tcpm] Progressing draft-ietf-tcpm-converters Yuchung Cheng
- Re: [tcpm] Progressing draft-ietf-tcpm-converters mohamed.boucadair
- Re: [tcpm] Progressing draft-ietf-tcpm-converters Yuchung Cheng
- Re: [tcpm] Progressing draft-ietf-tcpm-converters mohamed.boucadair