Re: [TLS] I-D Action: draft-ietf-tls-negotiated-ff-dhe-10.txt
Tony Arcieri <bascule@gmail.com> Wed, 03 June 2015 07:00 UTC
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From: Tony Arcieri <bascule@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 03 Jun 2015 00:00:07 -0700
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To: Yuhong Bao <yuhongbao_386@hotmail.com>
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Cc: Geoffrey Keating <geoffk@geoffk.org>, TLS WG <tls@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [TLS] I-D Action: draft-ietf-tls-negotiated-ff-dhe-10.txt
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So this is the exact problem I've been talking about. After this draft is actually implemented in all TLS servers everywhere, server operators can add Java-specific errata to their configuration to work around the fundamental problem that DHE is breaking Java TLS handshakes. Or you can just add the Java property I cited above. Which is total oddball errata. Nobody should have to worry about jdk.tls.disabledAlgorithms="DHE keySize > 2048" This is just adding to the "headache" of maintaining a modern TLS stack. I'll freely admit I just made mistakes trying to diagnose this problem but as a practitioner I seriously don't care about supporting these things and want them to just go away and for TLS handshakes to just work and not spontaneously break because of misconfigurations. I don't see how adding more complexity fixes the problem. I just want DHE to diediedie. Perhaps someone can explain how keeping DHE around is actually beneficial in any way whatsover? Right now it's just giving me a headache and making me angry. On Tue, Jun 2, 2015 at 11:54 PM, Yuhong Bao <yuhongbao_386@hotmail.com> wrote: > The idea is that the server can send a different weaker DHE key in the > ServerKeyExchange, or not use DHE suites at all. > > ________________________________ > > From: bascule@gmail.com > > Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2015 23:52:36 -0700 > > Subject: Re: [TLS] I-D Action: draft-ietf-tls-negotiated-ff-dhe-10.txt > > To: yuhongbao_386@hotmail.com > > CC: geoffk@geoffk.org; tls@ietf.org > > > > Yes sorry I meant ClientKeyExchange... > > > > But can you explain to me how this solves the problem for legacy clients? > > > > On Tue, Jun 2, 2015 at 11:52 PM, Yuhong Bao > > <yuhongbao_386@hotmail.com<mailto:yuhongbao_386@hotmail.com>> wrote: > > The client don't receive the ServerKeyExchange message containing the > > DHE key at all until after they sent the ClientHello. > > > > ________________________________ > >> From: bascule@gmail.com<mailto:bascule@gmail.com> > >> Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2015 23:35:46 -0700 > >> To: geoffk@geoffk.org<mailto:geoffk@geoffk.org> > >> CC: tls@ietf.org<mailto:tls@ietf.org> > >> Subject: Re: [TLS] I-D Action: draft-ietf-tls-negotiated-ff-dhe-10.txt > >> > >> On Tue, Jun 2, 2015 at 11:32 PM, Geoffrey Keating > >> > > <geoffk@geoffk.org<mailto:geoffk@geoffk.org><mailto:geoffk@geoffk.org > <mailto:geoffk@geoffk.org>>> > > wrote: > >> It's covered in section 4: > >> > >> If at least one FFDHE ciphersuite is present in the client > >> ciphersuite list, and the Supported Groups extension is either absent > >> from the ClientHello > >> > >> Unless I'm mistaken, unless you configure the > >> jdk.tls.disabledAlgorithms property explicitly (with e.g. "DHE keySize > >>> 2048"), Java clients are aborting *before* they send the ClientHello. > >> Please let me know if you're seeing otherwise. I could be mistaken and > >> perhaps there's a server-side workaround for this that isn't "disable > >> all DHE ciphersuites". But this is what I've personally observed and > >> have been advising people about. > >> > >> I'm not saying it can't be fixed with additional > >> configuration/errata/etc, I'm arguing that it's *breaking clients in > >> the field right now* > >> > >> tl;dr: I am seeing *widespread TLS breakages* because of this resulting > >> in *huge outages* for Java clients > >> > >> -- > >> Tony Arcieri > >> > >> _______________________________________________ TLS mailing list > >> TLS@ietf.org<mailto:TLS@ietf.org> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tls > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Tony Arcieri > -- Tony Arcieri
- [TLS] I-D Action: draft-ietf-tls-negotiated-ff-dh… internet-drafts
- Re: [TLS] I-D Action: draft-ietf-tls-negotiated-f… Tony Arcieri
- Re: [TLS] I-D Action: draft-ietf-tls-negotiated-f… Hubert Kario
- Re: [TLS] I-D Action: draft-ietf-tls-negotiated-f… Tony Arcieri
- Re: [TLS] I-D Action: draft-ietf-tls-negotiated-f… Yuhong Bao
- Re: [TLS] I-D Action: draft-ietf-tls-negotiated-f… Tony Arcieri
- Re: [TLS] I-D Action: draft-ietf-tls-negotiated-f… Tony Arcieri
- Re: [TLS] I-D Action: draft-ietf-tls-negotiated-f… Geoffrey Keating
- Re: [TLS] I-D Action: draft-ietf-tls-negotiated-f… Tony Arcieri
- Re: [TLS] I-D Action: draft-ietf-tls-negotiated-f… Tony Arcieri
- Re: [TLS] I-D Action: draft-ietf-tls-negotiated-f… Tony Arcieri
- Re: [TLS] I-D Action: draft-ietf-tls-negotiated-f… Yuhong Bao
- Re: [TLS] I-D Action: draft-ietf-tls-negotiated-f… Tony Arcieri
- Re: [TLS] I-D Action: draft-ietf-tls-negotiated-f… Tony Arcieri
- Re: [TLS] I-D Action: draft-ietf-tls-negotiated-f… Yuhong Bao
- Re: [TLS] I-D Action: draft-ietf-tls-negotiated-f… Tony Arcieri
- Re: [TLS] I-D Action: draft-ietf-tls-negotiated-f… Tony Arcieri
- Re: [TLS] I-D Action: draft-ietf-tls-negotiated-f… Dave Garrett
- Re: [TLS] I-D Action: draft-ietf-tls-negotiated-f… Peter Gutmann
- Re: [TLS] I-D Action: draft-ietf-tls-negotiated-f… Tony Arcieri
- Re: [TLS] I-D Action: draft-ietf-tls-negotiated-f… Tony Arcieri
- Re: [TLS] I-D Action: draft-ietf-tls-negotiated-f… Tony Arcieri
- Re: [TLS] I-D Action: draft-ietf-tls-negotiated-f… Peter Gutmann
- Re: [TLS] I-D Action: draft-ietf-tls-negotiated-f… Tony Arcieri
- Re: [TLS] I-D Action: draft-ietf-tls-negotiated-f… Nikos Mavrogiannopoulos
- Re: [TLS] I-D Action: draft-ietf-tls-negotiated-f… Hubert Kario
- Re: [TLS] I-D Action: draft-ietf-tls-negotiated-f… Michael D'Errico
- Re: [TLS] I-D Action: draft-ietf-tls-negotiated-f… Peter Bowen
- Re: [TLS] I-D Action: draft-ietf-tls-negotiated-f… Dave Garrett
- Re: [TLS] I-D Action: draft-ietf-tls-negotiated-f… Daniel Kahn Gillmor
- Re: [TLS] I-D Action: draft-ietf-tls-negotiated-f… Ilari Liusvaara
- Re: [TLS] I-D Action: draft-ietf-tls-negotiated-f… Dave Kern
- Re: [TLS] I-D Action: draft-ietf-tls-negotiated-f… Dave Garrett
- Re: [TLS] I-D Action: draft-ietf-tls-negotiated-f… Tony Arcieri
- Re: [TLS] I-D Action: draft-ietf-tls-negotiated-f… Daniel Kahn Gillmor
- Re: [TLS] I-D Action: draft-ietf-tls-negotiated-f… Jeffrey Walton
- Re: [TLS] I-D Action: draft-ietf-tls-negotiated-f… Dave Garrett
- [TLS] drop ffdhe2048? (was: I-D Action: draft-iet… Dave Garrett
- Re: [TLS] drop ffdhe2048? (was: I-D Action: draft… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [TLS] I-D Action: draft-ietf-tls-negotiated-f… Dave Kern
- Re: [TLS] I-D Action: draft-ietf-tls-negotiated-f… Tony Arcieri
- Re: [TLS] I-D Action: draft-ietf-tls-negotiated-f… Tony Arcieri
- Re: [TLS] I-D Action: draft-ietf-tls-negotiated-f… Nikos Mavrogiannopoulos
- Re: [TLS] I-D Action: draft-ietf-tls-negotiated-f… Ilari Liusvaara
- Re: [TLS] I-D Action: draft-ietf-tls-negotiated-f… Tony Arcieri