Re: [TLS] I-D Action: draft-ietf-tls-negotiated-ff-dhe-10.txt
Ilari Liusvaara <ilari.liusvaara@elisanet.fi> Fri, 05 June 2015 12:46 UTC
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Date: Fri, 05 Jun 2015 15:46:41 +0300
From: Ilari Liusvaara <ilari.liusvaara@elisanet.fi>
To: Nikos Mavrogiannopoulos <nmav@redhat.com>
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Subject: Re: [TLS] I-D Action: draft-ietf-tls-negotiated-ff-dhe-10.txt
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On Fri, Jun 05, 2015 at 10:44:47AM +0200, Nikos Mavrogiannopoulos wrote: > On Thu, 2015-06-04 at 18:02 -0700, Tony Arcieri wrote: > > As I expected, one of the major issues seems to be having a backup in > > the event of a catastrophic failure of ECC: > > On Mon, Jun 1, 2015 at 4:02 PM, Tony Arcieri <bascule@gmail.com> > > wrote: > > > I expect the response is going to be "What if there's some > > > catastrophic failure of ECC?" > > > > > On Wed, Jun 3, 2015 at 1:05 AM, Dave Garrett <davemgarrett@gmail.com> > > wrote: > > > People want a backup to deal with mistrust of ECC curves > > On Wed, Jun 3, 2015 at 3:05 AM, Nikos Mavrogiannopoulos < > > nmav@redhat.com> wrote: > > > Removing the negotiation option means there there will > > > be no backup at all in case of a flaw in the existing ECDHE > > > ciphersuites. > > When I did a quick straw poll of the CFRG about this, the seemingly > > unanimous preference was if we do want to solve the general problem > > of an "ECC backup", we should be focusing on post-quantum algorithms, > > not shoring up FFDHE. > > I agree, but I don't see any proposals so far. Once we have such an > algorithm as backup we can drop FFDHE. Unfortunately, PQ algorithms (and there do seem to be PQ key agreement algorithms that look sufficiently like Diffie-Hellman) are much less understood than DH or ECDH. Some relevant questions: - How much assurance there is to security of such scheme in general? - Approximately how fast the scheme runs (at least that it isn't hopelessly slow)? - How does exchange key size scale as function of estimated security level (especially as TLS is currently limited to 64kB keys, and PQ schemes tend to have very large keys)? - What mesages does the scheme need (especially, is it one from each in either order DH/ECDH has)? - Can the scheme use fixed sets of public paramters (especially as TLS 1.3 key exchange has that limit)? - How to perform trustworthy generation of the public parameters (some schemes have serious problems there)? - What regions of public parameters to avoid because of security issues? I don't know if this is even CFRG material at this point, let alone material for TLS WG. -Ilari
- [TLS] I-D Action: draft-ietf-tls-negotiated-ff-dh… internet-drafts
- Re: [TLS] I-D Action: draft-ietf-tls-negotiated-f… Tony Arcieri
- Re: [TLS] I-D Action: draft-ietf-tls-negotiated-f… Hubert Kario
- Re: [TLS] I-D Action: draft-ietf-tls-negotiated-f… Tony Arcieri
- Re: [TLS] I-D Action: draft-ietf-tls-negotiated-f… Yuhong Bao
- Re: [TLS] I-D Action: draft-ietf-tls-negotiated-f… Tony Arcieri
- Re: [TLS] I-D Action: draft-ietf-tls-negotiated-f… Tony Arcieri
- Re: [TLS] I-D Action: draft-ietf-tls-negotiated-f… Geoffrey Keating
- Re: [TLS] I-D Action: draft-ietf-tls-negotiated-f… Tony Arcieri
- Re: [TLS] I-D Action: draft-ietf-tls-negotiated-f… Tony Arcieri
- Re: [TLS] I-D Action: draft-ietf-tls-negotiated-f… Tony Arcieri
- Re: [TLS] I-D Action: draft-ietf-tls-negotiated-f… Yuhong Bao
- Re: [TLS] I-D Action: draft-ietf-tls-negotiated-f… Tony Arcieri
- Re: [TLS] I-D Action: draft-ietf-tls-negotiated-f… Tony Arcieri
- Re: [TLS] I-D Action: draft-ietf-tls-negotiated-f… Yuhong Bao
- Re: [TLS] I-D Action: draft-ietf-tls-negotiated-f… Tony Arcieri
- Re: [TLS] I-D Action: draft-ietf-tls-negotiated-f… Tony Arcieri
- Re: [TLS] I-D Action: draft-ietf-tls-negotiated-f… Dave Garrett
- Re: [TLS] I-D Action: draft-ietf-tls-negotiated-f… Peter Gutmann
- Re: [TLS] I-D Action: draft-ietf-tls-negotiated-f… Tony Arcieri
- Re: [TLS] I-D Action: draft-ietf-tls-negotiated-f… Tony Arcieri
- Re: [TLS] I-D Action: draft-ietf-tls-negotiated-f… Tony Arcieri
- Re: [TLS] I-D Action: draft-ietf-tls-negotiated-f… Peter Gutmann
- Re: [TLS] I-D Action: draft-ietf-tls-negotiated-f… Tony Arcieri
- Re: [TLS] I-D Action: draft-ietf-tls-negotiated-f… Nikos Mavrogiannopoulos
- Re: [TLS] I-D Action: draft-ietf-tls-negotiated-f… Hubert Kario
- Re: [TLS] I-D Action: draft-ietf-tls-negotiated-f… Michael D'Errico
- Re: [TLS] I-D Action: draft-ietf-tls-negotiated-f… Peter Bowen
- Re: [TLS] I-D Action: draft-ietf-tls-negotiated-f… Dave Garrett
- Re: [TLS] I-D Action: draft-ietf-tls-negotiated-f… Daniel Kahn Gillmor
- Re: [TLS] I-D Action: draft-ietf-tls-negotiated-f… Ilari Liusvaara
- Re: [TLS] I-D Action: draft-ietf-tls-negotiated-f… Dave Kern
- Re: [TLS] I-D Action: draft-ietf-tls-negotiated-f… Dave Garrett
- Re: [TLS] I-D Action: draft-ietf-tls-negotiated-f… Tony Arcieri
- Re: [TLS] I-D Action: draft-ietf-tls-negotiated-f… Daniel Kahn Gillmor
- Re: [TLS] I-D Action: draft-ietf-tls-negotiated-f… Jeffrey Walton
- Re: [TLS] I-D Action: draft-ietf-tls-negotiated-f… Dave Garrett
- [TLS] drop ffdhe2048? (was: I-D Action: draft-iet… Dave Garrett
- Re: [TLS] drop ffdhe2048? (was: I-D Action: draft… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [TLS] I-D Action: draft-ietf-tls-negotiated-f… Dave Kern
- Re: [TLS] I-D Action: draft-ietf-tls-negotiated-f… Tony Arcieri
- Re: [TLS] I-D Action: draft-ietf-tls-negotiated-f… Tony Arcieri
- Re: [TLS] I-D Action: draft-ietf-tls-negotiated-f… Nikos Mavrogiannopoulos
- Re: [TLS] I-D Action: draft-ietf-tls-negotiated-f… Ilari Liusvaara
- Re: [TLS] I-D Action: draft-ietf-tls-negotiated-f… Tony Arcieri