Re: [Tools-discuss] Chinese name order versus surname and initial attributes in <author>

Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org> Tue, 27 July 2021 01:12 UTC

Return-Path: <cabo@tzi.org>
X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A4493A0CC1 for <tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 26 Jul 2021 18:12:18 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.899
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 29V5-8CbxinO for <tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 26 Jul 2021 18:12:13 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:32::15]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6E8893A0D99 for <tools-discuss@ietf.org>; Mon, 26 Jul 2021 18:11:46 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from [192.168.217.118] (p548dcc89.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.141.204.137]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4GYdzh3rqPz31LS; Tue, 27 Jul 2021 03:11:44 +0200 (CEST)
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.7\))
From: Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org>
In-Reply-To: <24698.1627346282@localhost>
Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2021 03:11:44 +0200
Cc: Paul Hoffman <paul.hoffman@vpnc.org>, Ted Lemon <mellon@fugue.com>, Tools Team Discussion <tools-discuss@ietf.org>
X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 649041104.000388-79181e64f99aaef669ec049ef6a009c1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Message-Id: <6E1A26BC-3B97-4B9C-B07F-5D91A45A0E40@tzi.org>
References: <CAPt1N1nxkvx9-K8X3WktSpMDDR9pcGTuAhLacypMe-=YCN3GXw@mail.gmail.com> <51106D93-E01D-4695-8B59-B4E28A6BA215@vpnc.org> <24698.1627346282@localhost>
To: Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>
X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.7)
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/tools-discuss/GAATxckEJOAZ-vTWg9h5FIBb4AM>
Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Chinese name order versus surname and initial attributes in <author>
X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion <tools-discuss.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/tools-discuss>, <mailto:tools-discuss-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/tools-discuss/>
List-Post: <mailto:tools-discuss@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:tools-discuss-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss>, <mailto:tools-discuss-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2021 01:12:18 -0000

> 
> (The meta-problem is that we seem to be perpetually behind on fixing our XML
> specifications. At least, that's what it appears to me)

If we try to do semantic markup, and don’t think the semantics through, we'll need to do endless fixing.

In a similar case, postal addresses, we are in the process of deciding to get away from semantic markup and let everyone format their addresses the way they like them.  May seem like a regression, or like a liberation, depending on your perspective.

Personal names are really hard to get right [1].
RFCs make that much harder than it needs to be by employing initials, which are a computation on personal names that only makes sense if you don’t care about most of the people in the world.
If we got rid of that, we could reduce the need for semantic markup of names, and everything would be wonderful.  Depending on your perspective.

Grüße, Carsten

[1]: https://www.kalzumeus.com/2010/06/17/falsehoods-programmers-believe-about-names/
Read on at least until you get down to number 40 :-)