Re: [tsvwg] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-transport-encrypt-14
Spencer Dawkins at IETF <spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com> Wed, 08 April 2020 12:57 UTC
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From: Spencer Dawkins at IETF <spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 08 Apr 2020 07:57:34 -0500
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To: Gorry Fairhurst <gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk>
Cc: Tom Herbert <tom@herbertland.com>, "Black, David" <David.Black@dell.com>, Joseph Touch <touch@strayalpha.com>, tsvwg <tsvwg@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [tsvwg] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-transport-encrypt-14
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On Wed, Apr 8, 2020, 05:08 Gorry Fairhurst <gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk> wrote: > > On 08/04/2020 02:57, Spencer Dawkins at IETF wrote: > > Hi, Tom, > > On Tue, Apr 7, 2020 at 6:29 PM Tom Herbert <tom@herbertland.com> wrote: > >> On Tue, Apr 7, 2020 at 3:54 PM Spencer Dawkins at IETF >> <spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com> wrote: >> > >> > I'm happy to defer to Magnus on this, but ... >> > I also see more now - I'm happy to defer to MARTIN on this! My apologies for missing the change in responsible ADs. Best, Spencer > > >> > On Tue, Apr 7, 2020 at 2:10 PM Gorry Fairhurst <gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk> >> wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> On 07/04/2020 19:11, Tom Herbert wrote: >> >> > On Tue, Apr 7, 2020 at 9:20 AM Black, David <David.Black@dell.com> >> wrote: >> >> >>>> Also, a corollary should be the hard requirement: >> >> >>>> "Intermediate nodes MUST NOT ever modify transport payload”. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>> As a general principle, yes - agreed. There’s always the caveat >> that it’s always OK >> >> >>> *with the consent of the endpoints*, e.g., if an enterprise wants >> to set up the >> >> >>> network that way for their users. But in the arbitrary “middle” of >> the network, it >> >> >>> *should* IMO always be MUST NOT. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> As a general requirement, that’s fine, but it should be stated >> somewhere other than in this draft, e.g., as this draft is intended to >> become an Informational RFC. >> >> >> >> >> > David, >> >> > >> >> > Changing transport layer header, e.g. for traffic flow optimization >> >> > such as those devices doing receive window modulation, might also be >> >> > another use of transport header information that could be included in >> >> > section 2.1. Currently, the draft only seems to consider uses based >> on >> >> > passive observation of transport headers. >> >> >> >> Yes, that was the intention to talk about using the information, not >> >> changing the header. WE don't discuss methods that modify the >> transport >> >> header, some ACK-modification methods, Window Modulation, >> >> proxy-intercept, PEPs, etc, which can't work if you authenticate the >> >> headers. >> > >> > >> > That was my understanding when I was encouraging Gorry on this draft. >> > >> > In addition to the likelihood that the description of passive observers >> would be considerably delayed by inclusion of description of active >> middleboxen dorking with transport headers (we did not lack for controversy >> on passive observers, in 2017), I wasn't confident that we could come up >> with a taxonomy of what dorkers were doing, and why they were doing it. >> > >> > That's probably the result of me spending time in the SIP community, >> when we tried to describe what Session Border Controllers were doing in >> https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5853, while SBC vendors were adding >> features as quickly as their engineers could type. You won't be shocked to >> discover that vendors considered their dorking to be "secret sauce", that >> differentiated their products from their competitors, and were not lining >> up to tell us what they were doing. >> > >> >> Spencer, >> >> That reminds me of the olden days when some dorker providers were >> parsing HTTP and replacing ads with their own :-) >> > > I'm guiltier than I look about dorking with TCP and HTTP in middleboxes, > but let's just walk away from that ... > >> >> > So, unless someone can convince the working group that documenting the >> dorkers can be completed in finite time and space, I'd discourage expanding >> the scope of this draft, at this time. >> > >> >> it might be good to clarify the draft that only uses cases of >> transport information being observed are in scope. >> > > That would indeed be a clarification - I'll let the shepherd and author Do > The Right Thing, of course :-) > > Best, > > Spencer > > >> >> As I said, the potential tussle happens if the transport protocol >> designer decides to make some transport header information visible and >> doesn't consider that the network may then modify the information-- I >> believe this is prevented in QUIC since the plaintext parts of the >> QUIC header are authenticated, but that might not be the case for >> other transport protocols. >> >> Tom >> >> > And that's not in any way intended to say that documenting the dorkers >> would be a bad thing, if the working group thought it was possible. >> > >> > Best, >> > >> > Spencer >> > I see more now. Thanks Tom for raising this threda up, I will take a look > at the document - I see that since we added examples in the first WGLC, > there are some places where the language could mislead. I'll seek to repair > those in the next rev. > > Gorry >
- [tsvwg] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-transport-en… Tom Herbert
- Re: [tsvwg] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-transpor… Black, David
- Re: [tsvwg] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-transpor… Tom Herbert
- Re: [tsvwg] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-transpor… Black, David
- Re: [tsvwg] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-transpor… Gorry Fairhurst
- Re: [tsvwg] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-transpor… Black, David
- Re: [tsvwg] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-transpor… Joseph Touch
- Re: [tsvwg] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-transpor… Gorry Fairhurst
- Re: [tsvwg] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-transpor… Joseph Touch
- Re: [tsvwg] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-transpor… Gorry Fairhurst
- Re: [tsvwg] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-transpor… Joseph Touch
- Re: [tsvwg] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-transpor… Gorry Fairhurst
- Re: [tsvwg] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-transpor… Tom Herbert
- Re: [tsvwg] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-transpor… Joseph Touch
- Re: [tsvwg] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-transpor… Tom Herbert
- Re: [tsvwg] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-transpor… Joseph Touch
- Re: [tsvwg] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-transpor… Black, David
- Re: [tsvwg] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-transpor… Tom Herbert
- Re: [tsvwg] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-transpor… Gorry Fairhurst
- Re: [tsvwg] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-transpor… Tom Herbert
- Re: [tsvwg] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-transpor… Spencer Dawkins at IETF
- Re: [tsvwg] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-transpor… Tom Herbert
- Re: [tsvwg] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-transpor… Spencer Dawkins at IETF
- Re: [tsvwg] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-transpor… Gorry Fairhurst
- Re: [tsvwg] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-transpor… Spencer Dawkins at IETF