[urn] draft-ietf-urnbis-urns-are-not-uris
Larry Masinter <masinter@adobe.com> Mon, 07 July 2014 11:23 UTC
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From: Larry Masinter <masinter@adobe.com>
To: John C Klensin <john-ietf@jck.com>, "urn@ietf.org" <urn@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: draft-ietf-urnbis-urns-are-not-uris
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Date: Mon, 07 Jul 2014 11:23:06 +0000
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Subject: [urn] draft-ietf-urnbis-urns-are-not-uris
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http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/apps-discuss/current/msg12070.html "we'd like the discussion in Toronto to be the resolution, not the start of the conversation." The document does not describe the problem for which the proposal is the solution. I believe there are problems that urn's and uri's don't solve, I acknowledge there are people for whom these problems are important. I am not convinced that there are new problems we didn't think about 20 years ago, or that the proposal is either necessary or sufficient to solve any of them. I'm not sure, though; the doc does not supply sufficient detail. We already have a forked specification, the OASIS XRI. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extensible_resource_identifier initiated for similar concerns. It seems quite a bit more thought out than the urnbis proposal and doesn't seem to require any change to 3986. 3986 fragments have problems beyond those in http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/mimeTypesAndFragids And I think letting the fragment depend on the scheme first (with the default depending on retrieved media type) would allow 'urn:' to define fragments (and xri too). I think I've provided evidence that the needs of the library community were well-considered at the time when URNs were specified. I haven't seen any evidence of new requirements arising or discovered in the intervening 20 years. I haven't seen any new solutions to requirements for which splitting URN from URI would help. In 1998 http://larry.masinter.net/eudl/eudl-part3b.pdf#page=7 "Internet Technologies for Digital Libraries" notes the question of URL syntax constraining URN syntax. The 2001 document " URIs, URLs, and URNs: Clarifications and Recommendations 1.0 Report from the joint W3C/IETF URI Planning Interest Group W3C Note 21 September 2001" http://www.w3.org/TR/uri-clarification/ should also be an informative reference and responded to. > The issue is whether, based on their experience, their perceived > needs should be accommodated. . I started to say "are entitled > to be accommodated", but that isn't ultimately the point either. Sure, needs are entitled. > Instead, if they feel strongly enough about those needs --and > the WG has heard from far more than Juha, with people and > institutions of multiple varieties based on multiple countries > (and I've heard even more) to at least entertain a strong > hypothesis that they do-- will they move off to create a > standard of their own if the IETF says, e.g., "no, we, based on > the ideas of Larry or others, don't believe you need to do > that" It already happened with XRI, doi, xmp.did, (http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6920 ) and zillions of other ways of invented to naming. Naming is powerful and valuable. > I'm convinced that they will and am a bit surprised they haven't > done so already (Juha and others have been exerting superhuman > efforts to avoid that outcome). YMMD, but I'm convinced that > the costs of two inconsistent definitions of "URN" would be > sufficiently high that it trumps the claimed advantages of > trying to preserve an overarching RFC 3986. It's fine to invent a new way of naming things, but calling your new way "urn:" is just rude and unnecessary. > While the issues > are completely separate from the URN one, the view that > preservation of 3986 and its current definitions across the > whole range of whatever people choose to call URIs is not worth > shedding blood over (or even further constraining URNs or > slowing URNbis over) is somewhat reinforced by efforts in W3C > and WHATWG to change the URL definition in ways that, to me, > also look incompatible with 3986. Solving the WHATWG / W3C / IETF / Unicode consortium / ICANN / IDN coordination issue over things UR* is a problem as worthy (dare I say, even MORE worthy) of taking on, but I'm not at all convinced that cleaving URN out of URI is part of the solution. The main problem is turf, which technology cannot solve by itself. Larry -- http://larry.masinter.net
- [urn] draft-ietf-urnbis-urns-are-not-uris Larry Masinter