IETF Logo Mail Archive

[Web-bot-auth] Re: WebBotAuth Direction

Watson Ladd <watsonbladd@gmail.com> Tue, 19 May 2026 15:49 UTC

Return-Path: <watsonbladd@gmail.com>
X-Original-To: web-bot-auth@mail2.ietf.org
Delivered-To: web-bot-auth@mail2.ietf.org
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail2.ietf.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B4B2EF0D2BE5 for <web-bot-auth@mail2.ietf.org>; Tue, 19 May 2026 08:49:49 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=ietf.org; s=ietf1; t=1779205789; bh=/ry5meBSnbTgp6UttX6Fep5LbEAzV7d9i8XfG5KyUEg=; h=References:In-Reply-To:From:Date:Subject:To:Cc; b=HU69d1da0nLbiV4tNd4lIQxwLxCZA43SDmZmDAWeyoOqZ5p+MYfC6BnZ4jSxRZS2p mF1lntZ5pmZhVWE8JZfY9vtlbMJw824YGeZ195qKlVDAuToDDAj5+u5rMNkuGklx1s hybZ+FyqIPImgFXPxhE0hQQPkWwU1J7IQDO/9phA=
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at ietf.org
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.099
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: mail2.ietf.org (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com
Received: from mail2.ietf.org ([166.84.6.31]) by localhost (mail2.ietf.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KA9IWQmYv9BO for <web-bot-auth@mail2.ietf.org>; Tue, 19 May 2026 08:49:49 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-wr1-x434.google.com (mail-wr1-x434.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::434]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature ECDSA (P-256) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by mail2.ietf.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7B9CFF0D2BDE for <web-bot-auth@ietf.org>; Tue, 19 May 2026 08:49:49 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by mail-wr1-x434.google.com with SMTP id ffacd0b85a97d-444826c16ffso3282839f8f.1 for <web-bot-auth@ietf.org>; Tue, 19 May 2026 08:49:49 -0700 (PDT)
ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; t=1779205783; cv=none; d=google.com; s=arc-20240605; b=V0iJiRJ/DvPBblNbMKMoOmxCsyI/vJ39EsUbS6/zfh3zk6u+6J5bL/oA6MfNt4Sxcq QmNZQb4AG0fa4C+CvDqhafsLN/4YyrXZfoh+EN0X2ZXgQ0bDrsAlad6E0v7/0gr0PSpF uCCkPBCNIfOJdYwyjk+wGXjTeNtcxSbagKCPAsxOmiyaJdM1YZ+EqM/6Y2jeHvoUUiyN FkM9DloALEqV86cTPyaVYQ7WBa7U+yb7u2AZTt9kOjc95pxU/wGFiv8T3/Nhp0NJj6vE qzX1isFZEZDnqSWfeDUUCAVIJUQ846PXxbT/OsXDkBWyLU1JFgtHDoQgW7AIpzb/uKQP VjRQ==
ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=arc-20240605; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:dkim-signature; bh=/ry5meBSnbTgp6UttX6Fep5LbEAzV7d9i8XfG5KyUEg=; fh=kZuLqZBHsGPVIrK+PpL63s9YZwWeLgLPwTuLoFFpagk=; b=UinSRaXrjKCs++AzDvmTmu8NcgJWxMPz5hZh7gpq5NrltPfHVGCctBUMZ4RqXXQ2Wp y1PDqsFfhzGpCrU7cZ5b4VS99Fkcy+hCb2z0aPuNIHDXMV48XidnWT3KnuSVMoUx4mVf oyHteXQ9yhslklkrngAozy+sD5v/tP1GIM7CArK0Xc6Jo0K71GEZIrnIIzbalurSLPk1 nO6h+I+MarQODz4eNZBCY+IE5nPBiinHl+6DA1/zP5u9XBKQlp203UfqfBOVEGfDTolJ +Cf88Dwl5drmpEmAhk2WcrJHSJLOEqOnYVFJJ2gOPQLvcaGLXEPSwfYADXk582juKi0U Eh/A==; darn=ietf.org
ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.google.com; arc=none
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20251104; t=1779205783; x=1779810583; darn=ietf.org; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date :message-id:reply-to; bh=/ry5meBSnbTgp6UttX6Fep5LbEAzV7d9i8XfG5KyUEg=; b=XAvq91ycThFfa84L+t270w1YAn0FA8LFWss7e/AA4HJ0/BdEjp8mnJyn1DJJ0DXZQg 7VEcbNDTPzpNAs89fkYLQTiCG/vk58b+4bexZKL2m3U+WcqgH4pdjHhJ/qux7u56UIuj IT9U9cNxgKApl9UfWv4tlZwDvuV+Q+JicMB9AqJz+7ljBQAp520QJEfbrWUjGFY+TY11 AldP9GweLuwv8zE6GcD8i+a7EdWz0K4lizm3SEhXrR9tXET+3Ln4mt/7zaiNshyeIC8P eaYLInjjqVTzk28gFC8zqpF8KWKibA+vm7mG1YwlgdISKkEq4SgzqC4qgsQli1Gm5c08 IGaw==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20251104; t=1779205783; x=1779810583; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:x-gm-gg:x-gm-message-state:from :to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=/ry5meBSnbTgp6UttX6Fep5LbEAzV7d9i8XfG5KyUEg=; b=S2+fFnACH5wTXLhyKt6JFe+hM7Ksei+pm71KFm5v7Ukfafzmtpkl+VtJZTNZHQAJ1s GWxDNR7wWuFsxIE4NcpuugBnDIm56yjhKUYr5m68dO+GMH9GtVUpy2gJBB5N1JHm3SeU ZHYnNa0CNu2hWwmU8OQpkk9bikqAh1L/QSWCMyWVBTmg6StHsWbRma3Edb5I7F9p3KN7 nzJtzQfUeUTZGYfkPJcGB7xlKU0DOdK/SKn/NUnoJqKuNxgQWHc9qyOmsBWldiFFf3oo O8EZUFwqVaKR8T2zDOmO43etdbFV3iF4ZemGqzN8alWP+ZLo/gg5Nu5mIfeake/qNv1G v1qg==
X-Forwarded-Encrypted: i=1; AFNElJ+tUUYi/uqiq4NR0e9/onp9MBTlT1z1Lap6dqWsY+70j6uvVyQZyVOw1dbg0sJeNU/PS8klAPPiYb9GB3A=@ietf.org
X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0Yw9MxrlKG5fdKnoJYfGNKv9pJxx3MILfkBeKkbjPf/MszUUPf2F ZT7Yx7tLzkuoFauAlZBkCllRGCJwzWbbrr+GWrwPFA1Li/JWD32e87s8BbT8fMUGTFeWKyf7j4/ k/cWEP6e2CeVkVbW1Cx0wroOPhq566IA=
X-Gm-Gg: Acq92OFtNRkErlB4SJ4u0gL3XeweINY+nv6hk2Nor+gu2J/7WZ/UB7mzQF52gBK1Dgi UeESSEq9qXGNbUVBoOdLKCmLQ4GgaRE24qU08VFgT3MeYjrG5tjIMBctB0JbwDz9uofkzNyShoO le9cM/DC2DwZZzkTpeoX6zkOGh9aVui9GeQeF7DW3aS/hoHimmu8u//YpB0+HTskGMz/8rAZWhf a9jVa4K76XL4VKa51kP9lTBXsx+0a/FuCb7JAfItbPiJOFWPj74vUFi1OU1fghk0A5Trinox3s1 h8ySOck1ymDg/O1WmH53tfdCat54Xm0KsqE/4K7qAX6YX8Sbb3LWQIbCYbMzWoiZRMi8Vf516D6 sIHuCvpNpZqTo0iKTGRQz3zNG/FFqjKUlAjGRjVSEcBu7KttQDSopImSGSe6K1zsneVc=
X-Received: by 2002:a05:6000:230d:b0:45d:b14b:2412 with SMTP id ffacd0b85a97d-45e5c362c56mr32556695f8f.6.1779205782892; Tue, 19 May 2026 08:49:42 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
References: <CADNypP_iOUp6K90V4a=WcDOhqpG5yUv+VXh_jOwtLhEJf7s4jA@mail.gmail.com> <4BC241F8-8E3E-4CAE-B381-A0017E4C27F6@mnot.net> <2B1B950A-9FE2-4037-B5F1-11D1B4F25571@skgo.org> <CAGJaBrD27ZUxXBP4z_q22w=08yRRs9ABMjcTTWsAwa6J4gP95g@mail.gmail.com> <CAMzqgozP8chRZHgjJGevYWDfP5C=Ewc8mZUDCeEreEmJGtvomg@mail.gmail.com> <CAP5QTG7=Z_b1vgmKd6+iQk-+QNfKhZM3_q8wV4FTHepsQhYRvQ@mail.gmail.com> <DBBPR01MB1065104F6FE6CD00A9A747C0195002@DBBPR01MB10651.eurprd01.prod.exchangelabs.com> <CACsn0cmLHM2jAw2M20ekGeQ+T68HuhuxHkexBcqde-3P_BWtFg@mail.gmail.com> <1CA1FE7C-3811-4E7D-9405-3E7A5DEB3966@skgo.org>
In-Reply-To: <1CA1FE7C-3811-4E7D-9405-3E7A5DEB3966@skgo.org>
From: Watson Ladd <watsonbladd@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 19 May 2026 11:49:29 -0400
X-Gm-Features: AVHnY4LbvAzrmlvEXEcP03t3MDJCeVUEkVeY7N-ZYUkdbUUjr_KtundePg8Kuwo
Message-ID: <CACsn0ckTKBAWD6FqHtsjore1fG4_8p3HSA9Emk6Ta53T4_gpvA@mail.gmail.com>
To: Srecko Jovancevic <Srecko.Jovancevic@skgo.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Message-ID-Hash: NZF4EPNGQVVFVFF3PXXFBA6U5OUJO27T
X-Message-ID-Hash: NZF4EPNGQVVFVFF3PXXFBA6U5OUJO27T
X-MailFrom: watsonbladd@gmail.com
X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header
CC: Brent Zundel <brent.zundel@yubico.com>, Orie <orie@or13.io>, Sarah McKenna <sarah.mckenna=40sequentum.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, Mark Nottingham <mnot=40mnot.net@dmarc.ietf.org>, Rifaat Shekh-Yusef <rifaat.s.ietf@gmail.com>, "web-bot-auth@ietf.org" <web-bot-auth@ietf.org>
X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.9rc6
Precedence: list
Subject: [Web-bot-auth] Re: WebBotAuth Direction
List-Id: Authentication of non-human users to human-oriented Web sites <web-bot-auth.ietf.org>
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/web-bot-auth/sNh9bfaUVVLpb-KeBVuTYIU0rcw>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/web-bot-auth>
List-Help: <mailto:web-bot-auth-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Owner: <mailto:web-bot-auth-owner@ietf.org>
List-Post: <mailto:web-bot-auth@ietf.org>
List-Subscribe: <mailto:web-bot-auth-join@ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:web-bot-auth-leave@ietf.org>

If abuse happens on a website, and it can't be differentiated from
ordinary browsing behavior, is it really abuse?

On Tue, May 19, 2026 at 11:46 AM Srecko Jovancevic
<Srecko.Jovancevic@skgo.org> wrote:
>
> The thing is you develop an solution for behavior analysys based on ai .. you open up bot swar to ai engineering and it os quite ease to
> Put a wraped browser.exe or a custom both with there own tech into an Ai engine so you wouldin that raise a cold war and higher abuse rate
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On 19. 5. 2026., at 17:27, Watson Ladd <watsonbladd@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > 
> > I think that argument proves too much. The issue is not that bot traffic doesn't look human. Rather it's that there are classes of interaction that are malicious, and until recently automation (which after all humans start!) was a proxy for that actual behavioral difference.



-- 
Astra mortemque praestare gradatim

v2.46.0 | Report a Bug | By Email | System Status