Re: [Webpush] Eric Rescorla's Discuss on draft-ietf-webpush-vapid-03: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
Ben Campbell <ben@nostrum.com> Wed, 16 August 2017 02:31 UTC
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From: Ben Campbell <ben@nostrum.com>
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Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2017 21:31:36 -0500
Cc: Martin Thomson <martin.thomson@gmail.com>, "webpush@ietf.org" <webpush@ietf.org>, draft-ietf-webpush-vapid <draft-ietf-webpush-vapid@ietf.org>, webpush-chairs@ietf.org, The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>, Phil Sorber <sorber@apache.org>
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To: Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>
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Subject: Re: [Webpush] Eric Rescorla's Discuss on draft-ietf-webpush-vapid-03: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
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> On Aug 15, 2017, at 9:04 PM, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> wrote: > > > >> On Tue, Aug 15, 2017 at 6:56 PM, Martin Thomson <martin.thomson@gmail.com> wrote: >>> On 16 August 2017 at 09:42, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> wrote: >>> > Ultimately, this is a WG decision, but given that there are designs >>> > with much better security properties, I'd like to know that the WG >>> > considered and rejected this kind of design alternative before >>> > we advance the weaker design. >>> >> We discussed the implications of the bearer token design and concluded >> that this was acceptable. > > That's a much easier discussion to have without an alternative. > > >> We didn't discuss additionally signing >> messages in this way. Another alternative is to describe how token >> binding could be used to prevent token theft. >> >> One complaint I get about webpush is the amount of overhead crypto >> adds to sending messages. Mostly from a complexity standpoint. It's >> a real implementation barrier. We've forced people to jump through a >> lot of hoops and that has made them pretty annoyed. Deploying this as >> a required extension could be additionally annoying, not to mention >> incompatible with the existing deployed code. >> > The flippant thing to say would be that I-Ds come with a big disclaimer > for exactly this reason. More seriously, the future is bigger than the past > and given that (as you observe) the vapid token is used to identify > what you support, it seems like deploying the new thing would be > straightforward. > > I'm not terribly sympathetic to the complexity point: this is a very modest > amount of crypto. > > > >> What is nice about the specific design you describe (and my flippant >> tokbind suggestion as well coincidentally) is that it can be >> incrementally added to this scheme without a complete overhaul, >> probably without even changing the scheme name, suggestions below >> notwithstanding. >> >> It could be an optional increment, if we could decide that the push >> service doesn't require this additional protection and it was >> primarily for the benefit of application servers. Yes, there are >> benefits that accrue to push services and user agents alike, but we >> might decide that they don't gain any certainty about these benefits. >> That suggests a second, though less satisfying, path: a new draft >> describing the enhancement. >> > I agree that that's possible, but it's kind of unsatisfying to be publishing > a draft with this kind of known deficiency. > > Maybe the chairs or ART ADs would like to weigh in here? > > Weighing in as an irresponsible (for this draft) ART AD: My knee jerk response is to agree with Ekr. But it’s worth discussing how big of an incompatibility with existing code people are talking about. Are there a lot of deployed services that support vapid? Do people think that existing implementors will choose not to implement/deploy the additional protection? Ben. […]
- [Webpush] Eric Rescorla's Discuss on draft-ietf-w… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [Webpush] Eric Rescorla's Discuss on draft-ie… Martin Thomson
- Re: [Webpush] Eric Rescorla's Discuss on draft-ie… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [Webpush] Eric Rescorla's Discuss on draft-ie… Ben Campbell
- Re: [Webpush] Eric Rescorla's Discuss on draft-ie… Adam Roach
- Re: [Webpush] Eric Rescorla's Discuss on draft-ie… Martin Thomson
- [Webpush] Breaking Changes (was Re: Eric Rescorla… Adam Roach
- Re: [Webpush] Breaking Changes (was Re: Eric Resc… Martin Thomson
- Re: [Webpush] Eric Rescorla's Discuss on draft-ie… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [Webpush] Breaking Changes (was Re: Eric Resc… Ben Campbell
- Re: [Webpush] Breaking Changes (was Re: Eric Resc… Ben Campbell
- Re: [Webpush] Eric Rescorla's Discuss on draft-ie… jr conlin
- Re: [Webpush] Breaking Changes (was Re: Eric Resc… Ted Hardie
- Re: [Webpush] Eric Rescorla's Discuss on draft-ie… Martin Thomson