Re: [Apn] FW: A new draft on APN for your review, thank you!
Gyan Mishra <hayabusagsm@gmail.com> Mon, 01 February 2021 22:34 UTC
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From: Gyan Mishra <hayabusagsm@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 01 Feb 2021 17:34:02 -0500
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To: "Pengshuping (Peng Shuping)" <pengshuping@huawei.com>
Cc: James Guichard <james.n.guichard@futurewei.com>, "apn@ietf.org" <apn@ietf.org>, draft-per-app-networking-considerations <draft-per-app-networking-considerations@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Apn] FW: A new draft on APN for your review, thank you!
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Hi Shuping Most Welcome!! In-line responses On Sat, Jan 30, 2021 at 8:36 AM Pengshuping (Peng Shuping) < pengshuping@huawei.com> wrote: > Dear Gyan, > > > > Truly appreciate your detailed review and constructive suggestions! Thank > you very much! > > > > Please find in line below. > > > > *From:* Gyan Mishra [mailto:hayabusagsm@gmail.com] > *Sent:* Saturday, January 30, 2021 1:49 AM > *To:* James Guichard <james.n.guichard@futurewei.com> > *Cc:* Pengshuping (Peng Shuping) <pengshuping@huawei.com>; > draft-per-app-networking-considerations < > draft-per-app-networking-considerations@ietf.org>; apn@ietf.org > *Subject:* Re: [Apn] FW: A new draft on APN for your review, thank you! > > > > Hi Shuping > > > > I reviewed the APN BOF proposal and have a few comments. Some of the > comments may apply to the gap or other drafts. > > > > 5-tuple is mentioned numerous times and it maybe good to define the > 5-tuple which I believe you are referencing from IPv6 flow label RFC 6437 > which is source / destination IP port and protocol. > > > > Shuping> Yes, you are right. It is better to be clearly defined. Please > find the updated draft in the APN Github and the diff attached. > > Please feel free to make your suggested updates directly on the draft. So > we can update it in the next version. Thank you! > > https://github.com/APN-Community/APN-Scope-Gap-Analysis > > Gyan> Will do. I would be happy to be Co-Author of the draft. I will > add updates to the draft based on my comments provided. > > In the Gap draft and maybe here maybe worth mentioning flow label meant to > be used local significance stateless mode for uniform distribution load > balancing 5-tuple used as input key to hash function. > > > > Shuping> Yes, it is good to add this. > > > > Stateful is where the packet marking happens signals for classification of > service. It maybe possible to use flow label classification for APN ID > instead of using HBH or DOH TLV encoding which may be punted to slow path > until that processing paradigm changes to improve overall eh processing in > the fast path. > > > > Shuping> It is worth discussing about the encoding places of the APN ID. > Indeed, the current HBH is not actually usable for now. Does the DOH have > the same problem? > > Flow label is a good place to encode the APN ID since it is within the > IPv6 header. Just it has been standardized to be used for load balancing as > specified in https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6438. Not sure whether it > could be reused for carrying APN ID. > > Gyan> I will add to the draft > > As far as the 5-tuple DPI I believe most vendor routers can handle but as > you stated the variable for IPv6 is if you have a Christmas tree of > extension headers to be shift through to get to the transport layer. The > DPI issue as well is on open internet where you may come across and in > those cases as we have seen the hbh or DOH is being dropped filtered or > ignored so then the 5-tuple DPI may not be as bad. For closed operator > domains where APN is working as it’s within the operators domain the > 5-tuple DPI is not an issue as extension header usage is within the > operators control and if using SRv6 SRH they would filter any other EHs do > SRH steering is not impacted. > > > > Shuping> Yes, you are right. At the network edge device, the 5-tuple DPI > can be used to formulate a APN ID which will be carried within the packets. > Then within the operator domain, the APN ID can be used for performance > measurement and visualization, etc. We can also trick this paragraph in the > draft as well. > > Gyan> I can add some verbiage > In the summary section maybe using the word closed operator domain instead > of limited domain. > > > > Shuping> Since “limited domain” is a term in RFC8799, so we used it. But > we actually meant to say “closed operator domain”. Maybe we could add a > sentence somewhere in the draft saying that the limited domain is the > closed operator domain. Please suggest. > > Gyan> I can update > > Also worth mentioning that the steering benefits of the APN aware SR path > instantiation on the head end SR source node only applies within the > operators closed domain as myself and Linda brought up and once you exit > the fine grain classification for 5G Network slice or DETNET use cases is > lost once you exit the operators domain to the public internet. In general > from an APN use case perspective the gains unfortunately are limited with > fine grain once your exit the wireless operator 3GPP RAN xHaul to the > internet destination all fine grain classification gains are lost the rest > of the way the packet travels to its final destination which could be > anywhere in the world. The majority of the entire path maybe on the public > internet outside of operators domain depending on some variables of the > wireless operator is also a Tier 1 provider like Verizon we could deliver > the entire way close to the last mile endpoint still staying within the > closed operator domain. > > > > Shuping> It is great to know about this real deployment scenario of the > Tier1 provider. It will be very important to have this case in the draft, > that is, in this scenario, APN could help achieve more performance > guarantee along the end to end path. > > Gyan> Sure I can add to the draft > > For DETNET use case across a private operator core is most of the hops > could be APN aware and only when you are handing off to customer edge last > hops would you lose the APN fine granularity. For DETNET use case on > public internet you run into similar closed domain situation as with 5G > that as long as you are a Tier 1 or 2 majority of the path to the edge can > be protected APN aware. > > > > Shuping> The same as above. Please add this to the draft. > > Gyan> Will do > > For the use case example I think using the 5G network slice and DETNET use > case would be better than SD WAN example in my opinion as the main use > cases for APN. > > > > Shuping> We have some use cases in 5G network slice and DETNET, please > find them in this draft, > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-li-apn-problem-statement-usecases-01#page-8. > For the case of SD-WAN, we want to show what APN can help in both overlay > and underlay, especially for the SD-WAN run by operators. SD-WAN is very > important for operators to serve enterprises to access to the Cloud. We > have a dedicated draft on the use case of SD-WAN, > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-yang-apn-sd-wan-usecase-00. With CMCC, > we are currently updating the draft. If you have any comments, please feel > free to let us know so we can include them in the new version. > > > > Thank you very much! > > > > Best regards, > > Shuping > > > > > > > > Kind Regards > > > > Gyan > > Sent from my iPhone > > > > On Jan 27, 2021, at 8:58 AM, James Guichard < > james.n.guichard@futurewei.com> wrote: > > > > Hi Shuping, > > > > Inline .. > > > > *From:* Pengshuping (Peng Shuping) <pengshuping@huawei.com> > *Sent:* Tuesday, January 26, 2021 9:40 PM > *To:* James Guichard <james.n.guichard@futurewei.com>; > draft-per-app-networking-considerations < > draft-per-app-networking-considerations@ietf.org> > *Cc:* apn@ietf.org > *Subject:* RE: [Apn] FW: A new draft on APN for your review, thank you! > > > > Hi James, > > > > Many thanks for your detailed review! I have accepted most of your > comments and suggestions, which are very helpful. Thank you! > > > > About the following two points, I would like to know about your opinions. > > > > 1. I would like to still keep one identifier since we aim to have > one composite APN identifier which includes several fields instead of > having them as separate identifiers. > > > > Jim> perhaps I was unclear in my comments. The point is that the > identifier can represent > 1 “entity” dependent upon the use case. It may > be a single identifier “value” but it should be clear that that value may > represent more than a single requirement. If you use the wording “composite > APN identifier” then I think this is clearer. > > > > 2. I did not explicitly add the “data plane” because the APN > identifier will also be exchanged in the control plane to facilitate the > service provisioning (e.g. traffic steering and performance measurement, > etc.). > > > > Jim> true and fair enough. > > > > Please find the updated BoF description. > > https://trac.tools.ietf.org/bof/trac/wiki/WikiStart > <https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Ftrac.tools.ietf.org%2Fbof%2Ftrac%2Fwiki%2FWikiStart&data=04%7C01%7Cjames.n.guichard%40futurewei.com%7C6618f31adebe4b33616008d8c26cd918%7C0fee8ff2a3b240189c753a1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637473120074542537%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=11d%2FYq9JsFmuBEgJxtwqBJuT57RAEEjQtl4r1WTMxWY%3D&reserved=0> > > > > Please find the updated draft attached (diff) as well as in the APN > Github. > > https://github.com/APN-Community/APN-Scope-Gap-Analysis > <https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2FAPN-Community%2FAPN-Scope-Gap-Analysis&data=04%7C01%7Cjames.n.guichard%40futurewei.com%7C6618f31adebe4b33616008d8c26cd918%7C0fee8ff2a3b240189c753a1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637473120074542537%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=IM6SWEaZfTyuGeDqnRsJrwNw%2FI7WQ02JyqkWJl1p77U%3D&reserved=0> > > > > Thank you! > > > > Best regards, > > Shuping > > > > > > *From:* James Guichard [mailto:james.n.guichard@futurewei.com > <james.n.guichard@futurewei.com>] > *Sent:* Tuesday, January 26, 2021 7:17 PM > *To:* Pengshuping (Peng Shuping) <pengshuping@huawei.com>; > draft-per-app-networking-considerations < > draft-per-app-networking-considerations@ietf.org> > *Cc:* apn@ietf.org > *Subject:* RE: [Apn] FW: A new draft on APN for your review, thank you! > > > > Hi Shuping, > > > > Attached some comments and minor editorial corrections that I hope you > will find useful. > > > > Thanks! > > > > Jim > > > > *From:* Apn <apn-bounces@ietf.org> *On Behalf Of *Pengshuping (Peng > Shuping) > *Sent:* Thursday, January 21, 2021 9:08 PM > *To:* draft-per-app-networking-considerations < > draft-per-app-networking-considerations@ietf.org> > *Cc:* apn@ietf.org; int-area@ietf.org; rtgwg@ietf.org > *Subject:* [Apn] FW: A new draft on APN for your review, thank you! > > > > Dear authors, > > > > We have updated the APN BoF Proposal as attached. The suggestions in your > draft and the discussions with you offline inspired us a lot. The support > of the user/app group is explicitly shown in the text although it was > implicitly included. We have made a lot of efforts on clarifying the scope > of the work, introducing the basic solution, and describing the concrete > use case. Please advise whether we are clear now and how we can improve > further, especially on the privacy concerns. Thank you! > > > > This posted draft, > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-peng-apn-scope-gap-analysis > <https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fdatatracker.ietf.org%2Fdoc%2Fhtml%2Fdraft-peng-apn-scope-gap-analysis&data=04%7C01%7Cjames.n.guichard%40futurewei.com%7C6618f31adebe4b33616008d8c26cd918%7C0fee8ff2a3b240189c753a1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637473120074552532%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=YbIvQ5%2BqaZ%2F3pdP0bORohEFHnEpqyc0SUxkYu6WvPVs%3D&reserved=0>, > would be able to give you more complete information. Please also refer to > the recent discussions in the archives > https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/apn/ > <https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fmailarchive.ietf.org%2Farch%2Fbrowse%2Fapn%2F&data=04%7C01%7Cjames.n.guichard%40futurewei.com%7C6618f31adebe4b33616008d8c26cd918%7C0fee8ff2a3b240189c753a1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637473120074552532%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=VWpJ1hWJOLKpxMGa%2BR7%2FRDnDPOng5fYbXo8Kq9j4T1Y%3D&reserved=0> > if you have not subscribed the APN mailing list yet. Based on discussions > and suggestions we received, we will update this draft accordingly. Your > reviews and comments will be very much appreciated. > > > > Thank you! > > > > Best regards, > > Shuping > > > > > > > > *From:* Apn [mailto:apn-bounces@ietf.org <apn-bounces@ietf.org>] *On > Behalf Of *Pengshuping (Peng Shuping) > *Sent:* Tuesday, December 15, 2020 11:12 AM > *To:* apn@ietf.org; rtgwg@ietf.org > *Subject:* [Apn] A new draft on APN for your review, thank you! > > > > Dear all, > > > > A new draft on APN has been posted, > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-peng-apn-scope-gap-analysis > <https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fdatatracker.ietf.org%2Fdoc%2Fhtml%2Fdraft-peng-apn-scope-gap-analysis&data=04%7C01%7Cjames.n.guichard%40futurewei.com%7C6618f31adebe4b33616008d8c26cd918%7C0fee8ff2a3b240189c753a1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637473120074562528%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=Z1Am4g4glUXFQN%2B9nCa5EfT%2BSv72y2uePbabIfaBbtc%3D&reserved=0> > . > > > > In this draft, we clarified the scope of the APN work in IETF, introduced > an example use case and the basic solution. Moreover, we compared with the > existing “similar” work/solutions and did corresponding gap analysis. > > > > Your review and comments are very much appreciated. Thank you! > > > > Best regards, > > Shuping > > > > > > A new version of I-D, draft-peng-apn-scope-gap-analysis-00.txt > > has been successfully submitted by Shuping Peng and posted to the IETF > repository. > > > > Name: draft-peng-apn-scope-gap-analysis > > Revision: 00 > > Title: APN Scope and Gap Analysis > > Document date: 2020-12-16 > > Group: Individual Submission > > Pages: 11 > > URL: > https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-peng-apn-scope-gap-analysis-00.txt > <https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ietf.org%2Farchive%2Fid%2Fdraft-peng-apn-scope-gap-analysis-00.txt&data=04%7C01%7Cjames.n.guichard%40futurewei.com%7C6618f31adebe4b33616008d8c26cd918%7C0fee8ff2a3b240189c753a1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637473120074562528%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=LGLvNFJXBaUa16MnoBqXb3zBf%2BVAMqqYZz2o%2BxGWQKQ%3D&reserved=0> > > Status: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-peng-apn-scope-gap-analysis/ > <https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fdatatracker.ietf.org%2Fdoc%2Fdraft-peng-apn-scope-gap-analysis%2F&data=04%7C01%7Cjames.n.guichard%40futurewei.com%7C6618f31adebe4b33616008d8c26cd918%7C0fee8ff2a3b240189c753a1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637473120074572521%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=eul72kSsRaOdhmLLIhCUPLTwA5ljXCOUazL0%2BMtJn6c%3D&reserved=0> > > Htmlized: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-peng-apn-scope-gap-analysis > <https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fdatatracker.ietf.org%2Fdoc%2Fhtml%2Fdraft-peng-apn-scope-gap-analysis&data=04%7C01%7Cjames.n.guichard%40futurewei.com%7C6618f31adebe4b33616008d8c26cd918%7C0fee8ff2a3b240189c753a1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637473120074572521%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=gEjtLZoxN993ebyBof91g6DCNqIgq%2BCBN1RaMHjv544%3D&reserved=0> > > Htmlized: > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-peng-apn-scope-gap-analysis-00 > <https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Ftools.ietf.org%2Fhtml%2Fdraft-peng-apn-scope-gap-analysis-00&data=04%7C01%7Cjames.n.guichard%40futurewei.com%7C6618f31adebe4b33616008d8c26cd918%7C0fee8ff2a3b240189c753a1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637473120074582516%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=5GhYyQvPE3M6oqJV8duSSYIyYSdEXcCafHGEPjbXFtQ%3D&reserved=0> > > > > > > Abstract: > > The APN work in IETF is focused on developing a framework and set of > > mechanisms to derive, convey and use an identifier to allow for > > implementing fine-grain user-, application-, and service-level > > requirements at the network layer. This document describes the scope > > of the APN work and the solution gap analysis. > > > > > > -- > Apn mailing list > Apn@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/apn > > -- <http://www.verizon.com/> *Gyan Mishra* *Network Solutions A**rchitect * *M 301 502-134713101 Columbia Pike *Silver Spring, MD
- [Apn] A new draft on APN for your review, thank y… Pengshuping (Peng Shuping)
- Re: [Apn] A new draft on APN for your review, tha… Gyan Mishra
- Re: [Apn] A new draft on APN for your review, tha… Pengshuping (Peng Shuping)
- Re: [Apn] A new draft on APN for your review, tha… Gyan Mishra
- Re: [Apn] A new draft on APN for your review, tha… Feng Yang
- Re: [Apn] A new draft on APN for your review, tha… Linda Dunbar
- Re: [Apn] A new draft on APN for your review, tha… Gyan Mishra
- Re: [Apn] A new draft on APN for your review, tha… Gyan Mishra
- Re: [Apn] A new draft on APN for your review, tha… Pengshuping (Peng Shuping)
- Re: [Apn] A new draft on APN for your review, tha… Pengshuping (Peng Shuping)
- Re: [Apn] A new draft on APN for your review, tha… Linda Dunbar
- Re: [Apn] A new draft on APN for your review, tha… Linda Dunbar
- Re: [Apn] A new draft on APN for your review, tha… Pengshuping (Peng Shuping)
- Re: [Apn] A new draft on APN for your review, tha… Pengshuping (Peng Shuping)
- [Apn] FW: A new draft on APN for your review, tha… Pengshuping (Peng Shuping)
- [Apn] 答复: A new draft on APN for your review, tha… Feng Yang
- Re: [Apn] A new draft on APN for your review, tha… Linda Dunbar
- Re: [Apn] A new draft on APN for your review, tha… tom petch
- Re: [Apn] A new draft on APN for your review, tha… Pengshuping (Peng Shuping)
- Re: [Apn] A new draft on APN for your review, tha… John Grant
- [Apn] 答复: A new draft on APN for your review, tha… Feng Yang
- Re: [Apn] A new draft on APN for your review, tha… Pengshuping (Peng Shuping)
- Re: [Apn] A new draft on APN for your review, tha… Linda Dunbar
- Re: [Apn] A new draft on APN for your review, tha… Pengshuping (Peng Shuping)
- Re: [Apn] FW: A new draft on APN for your review,… James Guichard
- Re: [Apn] FW: A new draft on APN for your review,… Pengshuping (Peng Shuping)
- Re: [Apn] FW: A new draft on APN for your review,… James Guichard
- Re: [Apn] FW: A new draft on APN for your review,… Gyan Mishra
- Re: [Apn] FW: A new draft on APN for your review,… Pengshuping (Peng Shuping)
- Re: [Apn] FW: A new draft on APN for your review,… Gyan Mishra