Re: [aqm] TCP ACK Suppression
Yuchung Cheng <ycheng@google.com> Fri, 09 October 2015 17:05 UTC
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References: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1510060748480.8750@uplift.swm.pp.se> <D2394BB6.548C5%g.white@cablelabs.com> <0A452E1DADEF254C9A7AC1969B8781284A7D9B66@FR712WXCHMBA13.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> <5616DCD9.8@isi.edu> <alpine.DEB.2.02.1510081428470.3852@nftneq.ynat.uz> <5616E42D.5090402@isi.edu> <alpine.DEB.2.02.1510081517470.3852@nftneq.ynat.uz> <5616FAFA.5020707@isi.edu> <alpine.DEB.2.02.1510081647590.3852@nftneq.ynat.uz> <DM2PR0301MB065553C4CF55E7A6E5E23317A8340@DM2PR0301MB0655.namprd03.prod.outlook.com> <alpine.DEB.2.02.1510081731260.3852@nftneq.ynat.uz> <DM2PR0301MB06554D0E836BC2A8F67E12F2A8340@DM2PR0301MB0655.namprd03.prod.outlook.com> <alpine.DEB.2.02.1510082055510.2943@nftneq.ynat.uz>
From: Yuchung Cheng <ycheng@google.com>
Date: Fri, 09 Oct 2015 10:04:19 -0700
Message-ID: <CAK6E8=c_h2dMstJSSO9ATh1XUgriWOyeVixk4DHi+PAjO6LSMg@mail.gmail.com>
To: David Lang <david@lang.hm>
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Cc: "LAUTENSCHLAEGER, Wolfram (Wolfram)" <wolfram.lautenschlaeger@alcatel-lucent.com>, Christian Huitema <huitema@microsoft.com>, Joe Touch <touch@isi.edu>, "aqm@ietf.org" <aqm@ietf.org>, Greg White <g.white@cablelabs.com>
Subject: Re: [aqm] TCP ACK Suppression
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On Thu, Oct 8, 2015 at 9:03 PM, David Lang <david@lang.hm> wrote: > On Fri, 9 Oct 2015, Christian Huitema wrote: > > On Thursday, October 8, 2015 5:43 PM, David Lang wrote: >> >>> ... >>> For example, in the fq_codel/cake development, we're finding that there >>> are >>> some transports that bundle very large numbers of packets together to >>> send >>> at one time in order to maximize the transport bandwidth. (for example, >>> 4x4 >>> wifi sends a LOT of data in one transmit timeslot). Treating that large >>> aggregate as a single packet seriously hurts fairness and latency on the >>> next >>> hop. So 'pulling apart' this aggregate into the individual >>> packets/streams and >>> making decisions based on the pieces ends up being a serious win in >>> fairness >>> and latency. >>> >> >> Define "bundle" please. If they are making sure that several IP packets >> are sent back to back in a single Wi-Fi slot, then it is of course >> perfectly fine for AQM to handle the IP packets one by one. Does 4x4 Wi-Fi >> do something else? >> > > I don't remember the details from the discussion, but the combined bundle > required extra steps to pull apart to get at the individual packets. IIRC, > not doing so ended up with multi-MB chunks of data to be delivered, which > blocked all other traffic while it was being delivered. > > Suggesting that the queues that build up produce a special enough case to >>> consider thinning out the duplicate acks is a far cry from 'making a >>> recommendation that breaks other recommendations' >>> >> >> That definitely contradicts the TCP specs. So it is very much in "don't >> go there" territory... >> > > By 'not going there' you are crippling people's networks for the sake of > following a spec. Rather than following the letter of the old spec, we > should be looking at the reasons for it, and reasons to make exceptions. > There is a long history of introducing new things that break the old way of > doing things, from breaking "classful" network routing to Anycast, there > are lots of things that "broke" the old way of doing things. > > In this case there is more than a decade of people doing exactly what > shouldn't even be considered. > > I'll ask yet again, if acks have already been delayed so that they will be > delivered at the same time as later acks, how much value do they actually > provide? We need to compare whatever value this is against the cost of the > misinformation that they provide, and the impact on other traffic. Does DOCSIS suppress/filter ACK with SACK blocks and/or ACKs with timestamps? > > > David Lang > > > _______________________________________________ > aqm mailing list > aqm@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/aqm >
- [aqm] TCP ACK Suppression Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: [aqm] TCP ACK Suppression Greg White
- Re: [aqm] TCP ACK Suppression Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: [aqm] TCP ACK Suppression LAUTENSCHLAEGER, Wolfram (Wolfram)
- Re: [aqm] TCP ACK Suppression Bless, Roland (TM)
- Re: [aqm] TCP ACK Suppression Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: [aqm] TCP ACK Suppression Clark Gaylord
- Re: [aqm] TCP ACK Suppression Steve Bauer
- Re: [aqm] TCP ACK Suppression Francini, Andrea (Andrea)
- Re: [aqm] TCP ACK Suppression Richard Scheffenegger
- Re: [aqm] TCP ACK Suppression Greg White
- Re: [aqm] TCP ACK Suppression Bless, Roland (TM)
- Re: [aqm] TCP ACK Suppression David Lang
- Re: [aqm] TCP ACK Suppression David Collier-Brown
- Re: [aqm] TCP ACK Suppression Jonathan Morton
- Re: [aqm] TCP ACK Suppression David Lang
- Re: [aqm] TCP ACK Suppression David Lang
- Re: [aqm] TCP ACK Suppression Richard Scheffenegger
- Re: [aqm] TCP ACK Suppression Yuchung Cheng
- Re: [aqm] TCP ACK Suppression Jonathan Morton
- Re: [aqm] TCP ACK Suppression Jonathan Morton
- Re: [aqm] TCP ACK Suppression David Lang
- Re: [aqm] TCP ACK Suppression David Lang
- Re: [aqm] TCP ACK Suppression Joe Touch
- Re: [aqm] TCP ACK Suppression Joe Touch
- Re: [aqm] TCP ACK Suppression Greg White
- Re: [aqm] TCP ACK Suppression David Lang
- Re: [aqm] TCP ACK Suppression Joe Touch
- Re: [aqm] TCP ACK Suppression Yuchung Cheng
- Re: [aqm] TCP ACK Suppression Joe Touch
- Re: [aqm] TCP ACK Suppression David Lang
- Re: [aqm] TCP ACK Suppression Joe Touch
- Re: [aqm] TCP ACK Suppression David Lang
- Re: [aqm] TCP ACK Suppression Christian Huitema
- Re: [aqm] TCP ACK Suppression Rick Jones
- Re: [aqm] TCP ACK Suppression David Lang
- Re: [aqm] TCP ACK Suppression Christian Huitema
- Re: [aqm] TCP ACK Suppression David Collier-Brown
- Re: [aqm] TCP ACK Suppression Simon Barber
- Re: [aqm] TCP ACK Suppression David Lang
- Re: [aqm] TCP ACK Suppression David Lang
- Re: [aqm] TCP ACK Suppression David Lang
- Re: [aqm] TCP ACK Suppression Yuchung Cheng
- Re: [aqm] TCP ACK Suppression Joe Touch
- Re: [aqm] TCP ACK Suppression Joe Touch
- Re: [aqm] TCP ACK Suppression Joe Touch
- Re: [aqm] TCP ACK Suppression David Lang
- Re: [aqm] TCP ACK Suppression David Lang
- Re: [aqm] TCP ACK Suppression David Lang
- Re: [aqm] TCP ACK Suppression Joe Touch
- Re: [aqm] TCP ACK Suppression Joe Touch
- Re: [aqm] TCP ACK Suppression David Lang
- Re: [aqm] TCP ACK Suppression David Lang
- Re: [aqm] [tcpm] TCP ACK Suppression Joe Touch
- Re: [aqm] [tcpm] TCP ACK Suppression Greg White
- Re: [aqm] [tcpm] TCP ACK Suppression Joe Touch
- Re: [aqm] [tcpm] TCP ACK Suppression David Lang
- Re: [aqm] [tcpm] TCP ACK Suppression Joe Touch
- Re: [aqm] [tcpm] TCP ACK Suppression David Lang
- Re: [aqm] [tcpm] TCP ACK Suppression Joe Touch
- Re: [aqm] [tcpm] TCP ACK Suppression David Lang
- Re: [aqm] [tcpm] TCP ACK Suppression Joe Touch
- Re: [aqm] [tcpm] TCP ACK Suppression David Lang
- Re: [aqm] [tcpm] TCP ACK Suppression Joe Touch
- Re: [aqm] [tcpm] TCP ACK Suppression David Lang
- Re: [aqm] [tcpm] TCP ACK Suppression David Lang
- Re: [aqm] [tcpm] TCP ACK Suppression David Lang
- Re: [aqm] [tcpm] TCP ACK Suppression Joe Touch
- Re: [aqm] [tcpm] TCP ACK Suppression David Lang
- Re: [aqm] [tcpm] TCP ACK Suppression Joe Touch
- Re: [aqm] TCP ACK Suppression Simon Barber
- Re: [aqm] TCP ACK Suppression David Lang
- Re: [aqm] [tcpm] TCP ACK Suppression David Lang
- Re: [aqm] [tcpm] TCP ACK Suppression David Lang
- Re: [aqm] [tcpm] TCP ACK Suppression Dave Taht
- Re: [aqm] [tcpm] TCP ACK Suppression Jonathan Morton
- Re: [aqm] [tcpm] TCP ACK Suppression Jonathan Morton
- Re: [aqm] [tcpm] TCP ACK Suppression Simon Barber
- Re: [aqm] [tcpm] TCP ACK Suppression Joe Touch
- Re: [aqm] [tcpm] TCP ACK Suppression David Lang
- Re: [aqm] [tcpm] TCP ACK Suppression David Lang
- Re: [aqm] [tcpm] TCP ACK Suppression David Lang
- Re: [aqm] [tcpm] TCP ACK Suppression David Lang
- Re: [aqm] [tcpm] TCP ACK Suppression Joe Touch
- Re: [aqm] [tcpm] TCP ACK Suppression David Lang
- Re: [aqm] [tcpm] TCP ACK Suppression Joe Touch
- Re: [aqm] [tcpm] TCP ACK Suppression David Lang
- Re: [aqm] [tcpm] TCP ACK Suppression Jonathan Morton
- Re: [aqm] [tcpm] TCP ACK Suppression David Lang
- Re: [aqm] [tcpm] TCP ACK Suppression Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: [aqm] [tcpm] TCP ACK Suppression David Lang
- Re: [aqm] [tcpm] TCP ACK Suppression Greg White
- Re: [aqm] [tcpm] TCP ACK Suppression Joe Touch
- Re: [aqm] [tcpm] TCP ACK Suppression David Lang
- Re: [aqm] [tcpm] TCP ACK Suppression David Lang