Re: [arch-d] The IAB Liaison Oversight program - feedback on closing

[Guntur Wiseno Putra <[e-mail]>]

Dear Eliot and
architecture-discuss,


Eliot said:

"... I agree with Melinda that it is better to figure out where one is
going before one starts driving, but you always have the opportunity to
establish a new destination and route".


It reminds me about two presentations on "navigation" which are:



1) Animal Navigation by Prof. Susanne Akesson, Radcliffe Institue, Harvard
University, 2016 (especially  on "Biological Compasses" in minutes
28.00-36.00)



" ... How do they know where to go & what type of information do they
actually use?

(By behavioral experiments with small birds in captivity & in orientation
cages, it is about) biological compasses:

..".

Watch "Animal Navigation || Radcliffe Institute" on YouTube
https://youtu.be/kzgPH0ivMoo


2) "Strategic Navigation: A multiplanar methodology for strategic spatial
planning"

By Jean Hillier, EspacesTemps, 2015

Jean Hillier cited “The question is whether we can begin to think of cities
not in terms of needs we already know but in terms of diversities whose
connections we do not know” (May 2005, p. 166)

The paper itself was about "strategic spatial planning in conditions of
indeterminacy or uncertainty and a poststructuralist way of thinking about
planning, before moving to develop a multiplanar theory of strategic
spatial planning and to translate the theory into a methodology which might
be useful for strategic planners in practice".

https://www.espacestemps.net/articles/debating-spatial-dimen
sions-of-practices/

Regard,

Guntur Wiseno Putra


Pada Rabu, 24 Februari 2021, Eliot Lear <lear=[e-mail]>
menulis:

> Hi,
>
> Thanks, Deborah and other board members for the opportunity to discuss the
> program.  As you can see from the comments on this list and elsewhere, you
> and the rest of the IAB will have my assistance as long as you wish it.
>
> There really is a succinct question that the IAB has before it in this
> context:
>
>
>    - How is the Internet architecture both best advanced and best
>    protected through the board’s relationship with others?
>
>
> You might ask, “Who are these ‘others’ ”?  We typically think in terms of
> liaison relationships, but there are many informal relationships as well
> that are useful to maintain.  Having institutional knowledge of that
> component is something that is very difficult to track, because it will run
> stale.  Quite simply, people retire.
>
> You might ask, “What does it mean to advance or protect the Internet
> architecture?”  That is for you as a board member to decide.  Where the
> liaison program came in was as a means of intelligence and influence to
> indicate when a challenge existed, and how to deal with it.  We did, I
> think, a relatively good job of that for quite some time.
>
> Where I think we never did a particularly good job was on outreach to
> others when we wanted to let them know how the architecture was evolving.
> And evolve it has.  IAB statements end up on a web site that few people
> see.  But do they get liaised or shared in perhaps more influential ways?
> My experience has been that this has been inconsistent, at best.  What
> would be the reaction if they were, and should the IAB care? Many of us
> have some context to help you and your colleagues answer these and other
> questions.
>
> It’s true that all of this was not well documented in the program
> charter.  That’s perhaps more my fault than anyone’s, and for that I
> apologize.  Those who followed Ralph and me might have better understood
> the program’s value.
>
> It could also be that the program is somewhat misnomered, but this is
> based on the language in RFC 2850.  That document will need a dust off, as
> Brian and JCK have pointed out in another context.  In this sense, as you
> consider what to do next, my suggestion is to Think Big.  I agree with
> Melinda that it is better to figure out where one is going before one
> starts driving, but you always have the opportunity to establish a new
> destination and route.
>
> Eliot
>
> On 23 Feb 2021, at 23:03, BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A <[e-mail]> wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> [no-hats]
>
> While the IAB can open/close programs per their discretion without
> community input, I want the community to know that, as incoming IAB member,
> I had raised concerns on closing this program. IETF's liaison relationships
> to other SDOs has always been an important issue to me, as a working group
> chair of groups working with ITU, Routing AD, and MPLS liaison.
>
> Basically, I didn't understand why the approach on this program was to
> close it without first considering rechartering. The rationale for closing
> this program, i.e., no need for "recycling a dormant program", is identical
> to the IANA program ("sleepy program"), though for that program the
> conclusion was to update the charter and ask the community for feedback.
>
> And so my bigger concern - the IAB says it is "unclear" on the need for a
> liaison oversight program. For those of us involved in other SDOs, IETF's
> current "whac-a-mole[*]" process of involving experts on "as-needed basis"
> is very concerning.  This program was formed to "provide strategic
> direction" so as to relieve our liaison managers of being in conflict with
> RFC4691:
> https://www.iab.org/documents/correspondence-reports-documen
> ts/2011-2/iab-response-to-some-iesg-thoughts-on-liaisons/
>
> One of the four questions on the 2021 IAB Questionnaire was "how can the
> value of the IETF to internal and broader technical community be improved".
> To me, that question from the community, was affirming the importance to be
> [more] proactive in our liaison strategy to SDOs/forums/open source
> efforts. Not to close the responsible program with no new proposal.
>
> Sigh, as new IAB member, I'll tackle drafting a "clear charter" with
> "purposeful membership" program on liaison oversight, and hopefully be able
> to convince my IAB colleagues. Hopefully SOON [**] in the IAB decision
> timeline.
>
> 2nd (longer) Sigh,
> Deborah
> (countdown - 2 weeks!)
> [*] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whac-A-Mole
> [**] https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-farrel-soon-06.txt
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Architecture-discuss <[e-mail]> On
> Behalf Of Mirja Kuehlewind
> Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2021 11:54 AM
> To: [e-mail]
> Cc: IAB IAB <[e-mail]>
> Subject: [arch-d] The IAB Liaison Oversight program
>
> Hi all,
>
> As per our charter, '[t]he IAB acts as representative of the interests of
> the IETF and the Internet Society in technical liaison relationships with
> other organizations concerned with standards and other technical and
> organizational issues relevant to the world-wide Internet'[1]. That
> representation is carried out by liaison managers, who are selected from
> the community by the IAB. Liaison managers are overseen by individual
> members of the IAB who act as shepherds (see also [2]).
>
> Firstly, I would like to note that this message is not intended to propose
> any changes to the liaison manager/shepherd system at this time, as the IAB
> believes that this representation works well.
>
> In parallel to the liaison manager/shepherd system, the IAB is operating
> the Liaison Oversight program (see [3]). This program has been dormant for
> several years, and does not have a clear role to play in liaison management
> as of today. The program supported the IAB in developing the framework for
> liaison relationships and setting the requirements for the related IT
> systems but these activities were completed some time ago.
>
> As part of the IAB effort to restructure its programs, the IAB is in the
> process of reviewing all open programs. Given the currently unclear
> function and role of the IAB Oversight program, the IAB has decided to
> conclude the program. Again, this will not impact the liaison management as
> performed today.
>
> The IAB sees liaison management as an important part of its role and has
> taken on responsibilities like periodically reviewing liaison relationships
> itself, rather than delegating that responsibility to a program. Further,
> the IAB serves as a contact point to the community and frequently reaches
> out to members of the community in order to request support for the IAB and
> the IETF community in its liaison activities on an as-needed basis,
> depending on the liaison relationship and technology in question. This
> process has been working well and the IAB is working on further improving
> it to make it more clear and transparent to the community as well as
> improving continuity of knowledge and knowledge transfer between the IAB
> and a broad range of community experts.
>
> If during the on-going review of the liaison management process the IAB
> may find it necessary to have one or more programs for liaison management,
> e.g. to support maintenance of very active liaison relationships or to
> improve a specific parts of the liaison management process, the new IAB
> program structure has been set up to make to easy and uncomplicated to open
> and close programs/support groups as needed. Inline with that, the IAB
> believes it is the better option to create new groups with clear charters
> and purposeful membership, rather than potentially recycling a dormant
> program.
>
> We thank the program members for their service.
>
> Regards,
>
> Mirja
> On behalf on the IAB
>
>
> [1] RFC2850 s 2(f)
> [2] https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ietf.org/about/liais
> ons/__;!!BhdT!zvZhVZdKjTglhGiKkGwKaQOHI2hnkIzAee1ZtSK_SjFw_V
> MFpb4eIq9xnFihmAQ$
> [3] https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.iab.org/activities/p
> rograms/iab-liaison-coordination-program/__;!!BhdT!
> zvZhVZdKjTglhGiKkGwKaQOHI2hnkIzAee1ZtSK_SjFw_VMFpb4eIq9xK0bE_LM$
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Architecture-discuss mailing list
> [e-mail]
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ietf.org/mailman/lis
> tinfo/architecture-discuss__;!!BhdT!zvZhVZdKjTglhGiKkGwKaQOH
> I2hnkIzAee1ZtSK_SjFw_VMFpb4eIq9x7IQ6lHI$
>
> _______________________________________________
> Architecture-discuss mailing list
> [e-mail]
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/architecture-discuss
>
>
>