Re: [arch-d] deprecating Postel's principle- considered harmful

Henning Schulzrinne <hgs@cs.columbia.edu> Tue, 07 May 2019 22:54 UTC

Return-Path: <hgs10@columbia.edu>
X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BDE8A1202CB for <architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com>; Tue, 7 May 2019 15:54:40 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -4.2
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cCzUygggxhmR for <architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com>; Tue, 7 May 2019 15:54:39 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from outprodmail01.cc.columbia.edu (outprodmail01.cc.columbia.edu [128.59.72.39]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 87771120297 for <architecture-discuss@ietf.org>; Tue, 7 May 2019 15:54:30 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from hazelnut (hazelnut.cc.columbia.edu [128.59.213.250]) by outprodmail01.cc.columbia.edu (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id x47Mqjdq029339 for <architecture-discuss@ietf.org>; Tue, 7 May 2019 18:54:28 -0400
Received: from hazelnut (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by hazelnut (Postfix) with ESMTP id 913F07E for <architecture-discuss@ietf.org>; Tue, 7 May 2019 18:54:28 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from sendprodmail04.cc.columbia.edu (sendprodmail04.cc.columbia.edu [128.59.72.16]) by hazelnut (Postfix) with ESMTP id 45E3184 for <architecture-discuss@ietf.org>; Tue, 7 May 2019 18:54:26 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from mail-ot1-f69.google.com (mail-ot1-f69.google.com [209.85.210.69]) by sendprodmail04.cc.columbia.edu (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id x47MsPqr020524 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NOT) for <architecture-discuss@ietf.org>; Tue, 7 May 2019 18:54:26 -0400
Received: by mail-ot1-f69.google.com with SMTP id q23so10047116otk.10 for <architecture-discuss@ietf.org>; Tue, 07 May 2019 15:54:26 -0700 (PDT)
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=0ivDN1gtgM8qOb/1RWMBeELaUp81VzUXJyNuFz+YK4I=; b=cdWyynF4YQsybAChPmcK4YGciJYKKm034mgUqJF4tY0wkb0xdFPNdsAggXtpR2wRID TIn5KmQjYqDbBS3pKPUFyWFZi0m6Cs+kVjbGauh6saUzaJDcnAYrFkiQk7y5tFXw2+Iw koiXkwTNGiTDXo/d0mjCZOgKUt8RU1E5ih3Dkpp7K7KrNojcCO1PyVp7MKZ5sAak3kkH x+0u8s9wUoBLrItBk+DKzcBziN4ugi5pO18+lEfI4bafZlxYwt7AfxWs7Eyb+P5lPm4n mi9W5Z6lbQi5T0hpxGmLknIH/3joaktdK72qnj6dkX9gLoveYMToVNU/azs6KjUkmHgx JYYA==
X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXC3wJDxxf5EugbuK+ABpbkatHsp4xz10kzkmd8Afqsx30jEe5j pHOCJ/3ikuanG3vtINJuvvsx+AnSBsQZ54F+h2rYdw27lQ7ZVokv6kF6xwJirRDidrX9a9S48nt LWfVRCnpu1IQSm98B0WB/5YIi2Mhe9FlHsc5/axd21bdYa4UBAw==
X-Received: by 2002:aca:ec0f:: with SMTP id k15mr32534oih.43.1557269665442; Tue, 07 May 2019 15:54:25 -0700 (PDT)
X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzN1E6XCXN6/N9SzBSWRFJ2fFytPF5BA1LehAJpq32euEUFiTFat8ec2meEKXM8JfjknnI4JS5LKdK+uXOuLXs=
X-Received: by 2002:aca:ec0f:: with SMTP id k15mr32519oih.43.1557269665055; Tue, 07 May 2019 15:54:25 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
References: <F64C10EAA68C8044B33656FA214632C89F024CD3@MISOUT7MSGUSRDE.ITServices.sbc.com> <CALaySJJDHg5j9Z7+noS=YXoNROqdsbJ6coEECtLtbJ6fWJ3xsQ@mail.gmail.com> <CAA=duU1TxZx9W8huPp5md25Wf+9=f50WYGpU=Bb1OQ+OdF6k6A@mail.gmail.com> <CACgrgBYs95Q4hb=y-6i7SW9mEx9Bg-gp0TrpAYpsP-aODSx+YA@mail.gmail.com> <eb979c24-e9d2-4ebb-1d4b-94b8c9aa16e1@huitema.net>
In-Reply-To: <eb979c24-e9d2-4ebb-1d4b-94b8c9aa16e1@huitema.net>
From: Henning Schulzrinne <hgs@cs.columbia.edu>
Date: Tue, 07 May 2019 18:53:59 -0400
Message-ID: <CACgrgBahawkXbyXoYHbwYSkfCG9zxn6M8jgwswDpcFjfZVcffw@mail.gmail.com>
To: Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net>
Cc: "Andrew G. Malis" <agmalis@gmail.com>, "architecture-discuss@ietf.org" <architecture-discuss@ietf.org>, Barry Leiba <barryleiba@computer.org>, "ietf@ietf.org" <ietf@ietf.org>, "iab@iab.org" <iab@iab.org>, The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000349b3f05885419d2"
X-No-Spam-Score: Local
X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.84 on 128.59.72.16
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/architecture-discuss/xCliHih7zvl5yr4ysOVsEodWivo>
Subject: Re: [arch-d] deprecating Postel's principle- considered harmful
X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues <architecture-discuss.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/architecture-discuss>, <mailto:architecture-discuss-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/architecture-discuss/>
List-Post: <mailto:architecture-discuss@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:architecture-discuss-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/architecture-discuss>, <mailto:architecture-discuss-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 07 May 2019 22:54:43 -0000

It's kind of the inverse robustness problem - lots of perfectly-well
documented protocol features are not usable in practice since they break
"lazy", but important, implementations. The SIP crowd will remember the
endless discussions about MIME multipart.

In those cases, it would probably be wise to simply declare that a
well-intentioned feature is no longer recommended for new implementations
and possibly look for alternative options. (We seem to get into the
circular arguments of "We need X", "use standard mechanism M to do X", "but
none of the major implementations do M and are unlikely to in the
foreseeable future", "but we cannot have two ways to do X and M is actually
a better idea"; wait two years; repeat. Alternative: people develop a
kludge that kind of works.)

The old, rarely-exercised, promotion-to-Draft-Standard step was supposed to
catch this, but that process protocol path obviously was also rarely
exercised.

Henning


>
> And then for a counter example, also related to IPv6. The IPv6 specs
> allows implementations to insert a variety of intermediate headers
> between the IPv6 header and the transport packet, but many router
> implementations just don't like that and slow down or drop packets if
> such intermediate routers are present. A case where the spec is arguably
> too permissive, or the implementations too strict.
>
> -- Christian Huitema
>
>