Re: [auth48] AUTH48: RFC-to-be 9353 <draft-ietf-lsr-pce-discovery-security-support-13> for your review

Dhruv Dhody <dhruv.ietf@gmail.com> Fri, 06 January 2023 16:34 UTC

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From: Dhruv Dhody <dhruv.ietf@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 06 Jan 2023 22:03:53 +0530
Message-ID: <CAB75xn6eXS8yvkAsGh-F8q7nD2ZMLfCb7AUp2ncuxmjruCUuwQ@mail.gmail.com>
To: Megan Ferguson <mferguson@amsl.com>
Cc: "lsr-ads@ietf.org" <lsr-ads@ietf.org>, "daniel@olddog.co.uk" <daniel@olddog.co.uk>, "diego.r.lopez@telefonica.com" <diego.r.lopez@telefonica.com>, "maqiufang1@huawei.com" <maqiufang1@huawei.com>, "jgs@juniper.net" <jgs@juniper.net>, "bill.wu@huawei.com" <bill.wu@huawei.com>, Acee Lindem <acee.ietf@gmail.com>, "Acee Lindem (acee)" <acee=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, "rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org" <rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org>, "lsr-chairs@ietf.org" <lsr-chairs@ietf.org>, "auth48archive@rfc-editor.org" <auth48archive@rfc-editor.org>
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Subject: Re: [auth48] AUTH48: RFC-to-be 9353 <draft-ietf-lsr-pce-discovery-security-support-13> for your review
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Hi Megan,

I have reviewed the changes, please note my approval.

Thanks!
Dhruv

On Fri, Jan 6, 2023 at 9:36 PM Megan Ferguson <mferguson@amsl.com> wrote:

> Authors,
>
> Please note that the necessary IANA and AD approvals/guidance have been
> received.  Once we have approvals from each author, this document will be
> ready to move forward in the publication process.
>
>  The files have been posted here (please refresh):
>   https://www.rfc-editor.org/authors/rfc9353.txt
>   https://www.rfc-editor.org/authors/rfc9353.pdf
>   https://www.rfc-editor.org/authors/rfc9353.html
>   https://www.rfc-editor.org/authors/rfc9353.xml
>
> The relevant diff files have been posted here (please refresh):
>   https://www.rfc-editor.org/authors/rfc9353-diff.html (comprehensive
> diff)
>   https://www.rfc-editor.org/authors/rfc9353-rfcdiff.html (comprehensive
> rfcdiff)
>   https://www.rfc-editor.org/authors/rfc9353-auth48diff.html (AUTH48
> changes only)
>
> The AUTH48 status page is viewable here:
>   http://www.rfc-editor.org/auth48/rfc9353
>
> Thank you.
>
> RFC Editor/mf
>
>
> > On Jan 5, 2023, at 10:18 PM, Dhruv Dhody <dhruv.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Acee,
> >
> > On Fri, Jan 6, 2023 at 3:02 AM Acee Lindem <acee.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Hi Megan,
> >
> > > On Jan 5, 2023, at 1:14 PM, Megan Ferguson <mferguson@amsl.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > Acee and Dhruv and *ADs,
> > >
> > > *ADs - We would appreciate further guidance on the following question:
> >
> > I think it is fine as it is in the current RFC9353.txt since it says
> that MD5 is obsoleted in the very next sentence.
> >
> >     As described in Section 10.2 of [RFC5440], a PCEP speaker MUST
> >     support TCP MD5 [RFC2385], so no capability advertisement is needed
> >     to indicate support. However, as noted in [RFC6952], TCP MD5 has
> >     been obsoleted by TCP-AO [RFC5925] because of security concerns.
> >
> >
> > Dhruv: I agree with Acee and take back my suggested options. The current
> text is fine!
> >
> > It was the title of RFC 2385 [Protection of BGP Sessions via the TCP MD5
> Signature Option] that threw me off, and I assumed it to be a document
> specific to BGP only! RFC 5440 PCEP references RFC 2385 in Section 10.2 and
> thus it is the correct reference to use! I apologize for the noise and
> wasting everyone's precious time!
> > Thanks!
> > Dhruv
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Acee
> >
> >
> >
> > >
> > >> 14) <!-- [rfced] RFC 2385 has been obsoleted by RFC 5925. Would the
> following update be agreeable?  We note that RFC 5925 is already in the
> References section.
> > >>
> > >> Original:
> > >>   As described in Section 10.2 of [RFC5440], an PCEP speaker MUST
> > >>   support TCP MD5 [RFC2385], so no capability advertisement is needed
> > >>   to indicate support.
> > >>
> > >> Perhaps:
> > >>   As described in Section 10.2 of [RFC5440], an PCEP speaker MUST
> > >>   support TCP MD5 [RFC2385], so no capability advertisement is needed
> > >>   to indicate support.  (Note that RFC 2385 has been obsoleted by RFC
> > >>   5925.)
> > >> -->
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Dhruv: I think the reference RFC2385 itself needs to change. I see
> two option, we could either -
> > >>
> > >> A: Not using any reference, I see published RFCs which include the
> term "MD5" without a reference as it is quite well-known.
> > >> B: Use the reference as RFC 1321 (can also say that is obsoleted by
> RFC 5925)
> > >>
> > >> I think it should be “a PCEP speaker” rather than “an PCEP speaker
> since neither “P” or “Path” would be preceded by “an”.
> > >> I don’t feel strongly about the reference – FBOW MD5 is deployed.
> Either option is fine with me stating that it has been
> > >> obsoleted.
> > >>
> > >> I would like to know the opinion of the RFC editor team and others in
> CC!
> > >
> > > [rfced] *ADs - any suggestions for the authors on how to proceed with
> the above issue?
> > >
> > > Acee and Dhruv,
> > >
> > > Thank you for your replies and guidance.  We have updated as
> suggested.  Please review the updated document carefully as we do not make
> changes once the document is published.  Note that the addition of “RFC
> Publisher” to reference entries is due to a current tools issue and will be
> removed prior to publication.
> > >
> > > FYI - You will see our submitted change to the IANA registry title go
> by in a separate message.
> > >
> > >  The files have been posted here (please refresh):
> > >   https://www.rfc-editor.org/authors/rfc9353.txt
> > >   https://www.rfc-editor.org/authors/rfc9353.pdf
> > >   https://www.rfc-editor.org/authors/rfc9353.html
> > >   https://www.rfc-editor.org/authors/rfc9353.xml
> > >
> > > The relevant diff files have been posted here (please refresh):
> > >   https://www.rfc-editor.org/authors/rfc9353-diff.html (comprehensive
> diff)
> > >   https://www.rfc-editor.org/authors/rfc9353-rfcdiff.html
> (comprehensive rfcdiff)
> > >   https://www.rfc-editor.org/authors/rfc9353-auth48diff.html (AUTH48
> changes only)
> > >
> > > The AUTH48 status page for this document is available here:
> > >   http://www.rfc-editor.org/auth48/rfc9353
> > >
> > > Thank you.
> > >
> > > RFC Editor/mf
> > >
> > >> On Jan 2, 2023, at 11:05 AM, Acee Lindem (acee) <acee=
> 40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> Hi RFC Editor, Dhruv,
> > >>
> > >> I concur with Dhruv on thanking the RFC Editors for the excellent
> work!!!
> > >>
> > >> See a couple inlines.
> > >>
> > >> From: Dhruv Dhody <dhruv.ietf@gmail.com>
> > >> Date: Sunday, January 1, 2023 at 11:28 PM
> > >> To: rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org <rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org>
> > >> Cc: diego.r.lopez@telefonica.com <diego.r.lopez@telefonica.com>,
> bill.wu@huawei.com <bill.wu@huawei.com>, maqiufang1@huawei.com<
> maqiufang1@huawei.com>, daniel@olddog.co.uk <daniel@olddog.co.uk>,
> lsr-ads@ietf.org <lsr-ads@ietf.org>, lsr-chairs@ietf.org <
> lsr-chairs@ietf.org>, Acee Lindem (acee) <acee@cisco.com>, jgs@juniper.net
> <jgs@juniper.net>, auth48archive@rfc-editor.org <
> auth48archive@rfc-editor.org>
> > >> Subject: Re: AUTH48: RFC-to-be 9353
> <draft-ietf-lsr-pce-discovery-security-support-13> for your review
> > >>
> > >> Hello,
> > >>
> > >> Happy New Year! Thanks for making the document better with your
> excellent work. See inline...
> > >>
> > >> On Sat, Dec 24, 2022 at 1:43 AM <rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org> wrote:
> > >> Authors,
> > >>
> > >> While reviewing this document during AUTH48, please resolve (as
> necessary) the following questions, which are also in the XML file.
> > >>
> > >> 1) <!-- [rfced] Please note that the title of the document has been
> updated as follows:
> > >>
> > >> a) Abbreviations have been expanded per Section 3.6 of RFC 7322 (“RFC
> > >> Style Guide”). Please review.
> > >>
> > >> Original:
> > >> IGP extension for PCEP security capability support in PCE discovery
> > >>
> > >> Current:
> > >> IGP Extension for Path Computation Element Communication Protocol
> > >> (PCEP) Security Capability Support in PCE Discovery (PCED)
> > >>
> > >> Dhruv: This is fine.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> b) The short title (in the running header of the PDF version) has
> been updated.  Please review and let us know any objections.
> > >>
> > >> Current:
> > >> IGP Extension: PCEP Security in PCED
> > >> -->
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Dhruv: No objection.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> 2) <!-- [rfced] Please insert any keywords (beyond those that appear
> in
> > >> the title) for use on https://www.rfc-editor.org/search. -->
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Dhruv: Can't think of any other keywords
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> 3) <!-- [rfced]  Please review our suggested rephrase of the
> following text. Does it retain your intended meaning?
> > >>
> > >> Original:
> > >> When a Path Computation Element (PCE) is a Label Switching Router
> > >> (LSR) participating in the Interior Gateway Protocol (IGP), or even a
> server participating in the IGP, its presence and path computation
> capabilities can be advertised using IGP flooding.
> > >>
> > >> Perhaps:
> > >> When a Path Computation Element (PCE) is a Label Switching Router
> > >> (LSR) or a server participating in the Interior Gateway Protocol
> (IGP), its
> > >> presence and path computation capabilities can be advertised using IGP
> > >> flooding. -->
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Dhruv: I am happy with the rephrasing.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> 4) <!--[rfced] Please review the updates we have made to the following
> > >>     text (to avoid awkward hyphenation) to ensure the changes have
> > >>     retained your intended meaning.
> > >>
> > >> Original:
> > >> As described in [RFC5440], Path Computation Element Communication
> > >> Protocol (PCEP) communication privacy and integrity are important
> > >> issues, as an attacker that intercepts a PCEP message could obtain
> > >> sensitive information related to computed paths and resources.
> > >>
> > >> Current:
> > >> As described in RFC 5440, privacy and
> > >> integrity are important issues for communication using the Path
> > >> Computation Element Communication Protocol (PCEP); an attacker that
> > >> intercepts a PCEP message could obtain sensitive information related
> > >> to computed paths and resources.
> > >>
> > >> -->
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Dhruv: It is fine; just s/RFC 5440/[RFC5440]/ and I noticed that in
> the link that is exactly what you have already :)
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> 5) <!-- [rfced] We have updated this sentence to include TCP-AO as a
> > >>     method to advertise PCEP security to make the text parallel to
> > >>     the Abstract. Please let us know any objections.
> > >>
> > >> Original:
> > >> [RFC5088] and [RFC5089] define a method to advertise path computation
> > >> capabilities using IGP flooding for OSPF and IS-IS respectively.
> > >> However, these specifications lack a method to advertise PCEP security
> > >> (e.g., TLS) support capability.
> > >>
> > >> Current:
> > >> [RFC5088] and [RFC5089] define a method to advertise path computation
> > >> capabilities using IGP flooding for OSPF and IS-IS, respectively.
> > >> However, these specifications lack a method to advertise PCEP security
> > >> (e.g., TLS and TCP-AO) support capability. -->
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Dhruv: Sure!
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> 6) <!--[rfced] Is text missing here?  "...the IS-IS" what?  Protocol?
> > >>     Sub-TLVs?  Please clarify.
> > >>
> > >> Original:
> > >> [RFC5089] states that the IS-IS uses the same registry as OSPF.
> > >> -->
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Dhruv: Perhaps -
> > >>
> > >> [RFC5089] states that the IS-IS PCE-CAP-FLAGS sub-TLV uses the
> > >> same registry as OSPF.
> > >>
> > >> Dhruv’s suggested text is fine.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> 7) <!--[rfced] Please review the following text for clarity.  We were
> > >>     unsure about the last sentence when comparing it with the IANA
> > >>     actions in the IANA Considerations section and RFC 8306.  If the
> > >>     suggested text is incorrect, please provide another rephrasing.
> > >>
> > >> Original:
> > >> This document updates [RFC8306] where it uses the term "OSPF PCE
> > >> Capability Flag" and request assignment from OSPF Parameters registry
> > >> with "PCE Capability Flag" and the IGP Parameters registry.
> > >>
> > >> Perhaps:
> > >> This document also updates [RFC8306] by changing the term "OSPF PCE
> > >> Capability Flag" to read as "Path Computation Element (PCE) Capability
> > >> Flags" and to note the corresponding registry now exits in the
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> "Interior Gateway Protocol (IGP) Parameters" registry.
> > >> -->
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Dhruv: Happy with the rephrasing!
> > >>
> > >> Please change “exits” to “exists”.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> 8) <!--[rfced] Please review whether any of the notes in this document
> > >>     should be in the <aside> element. It is defined as "a container
> > >>     for content that is semantically less important or tangential to
> > >>     the content that surrounds it"
> > >>     (https://authors.ietf.org/en/rfcxml-vocabulary#aside).
> > >>
> > >> Original (1):
> > >> Note that [RFC5557] uses the term "OSPF registry" instead of the "IGP
> > >> registry" whereas [RFC8623] and [RFC9168] uses the term "OSPF
> > >> Parameters" instead of "IGP Parameters".
> > >>
> > >> Original (2):
> > >> Note that the PCEP Open message exchange is another way to discover
> > >> PCE capabilities information, but in this instance, the TCP security
> > >> related key parameters need to be known before the PCEP session is
> > >> established and the PCEP Open messages are exchanged.  Thus, the use
> > >> of the PCE Discovery and capabilities advertisement of the IGP needs
> > >> to be leveraged. -->
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Dhruv: Happy to use <aside> element in the xml!
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> 9) <!--[rfced] The Web Portion of the RFC Style Guide
> > >>     (https://www.rfc-editor.org/styleguide/part2/) recommends using
> > >>     the abbreviated form of an abbreviation after it has been
> > >>     introduced. We will implement this style for each of the
> > >>     following abbreviations unless we hear objection.
> > >>
> > >> PCE Discovery (PCED)
> > >> TCP Authentication Option (TCP-AO)
> > >> Master Key Tuple (MKT) -->
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Dhruv: No objection
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> 10) <!--[rfced] The following text is difficult to follow with regard
> to subject/verb agreement.  Would either of the following suggestions work?
> > >>
> > >> Original:
> > >> Thus, the use of the PCE discovery and capabilities
> > >> advertisement of the IGP needs to be leveraged.
> > >>
> > >> Perhaps A:
> > >> Thus, PCE discovery and capabilities
> > >> advertisement of the IGP need to be leveraged.
> > >>
> > >> Perhaps B:
> > >> Thus, the leveraging of PCE discovery and capabilities
> > >> advertisement of the IGP is necessary.
> > >> -->
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Dhruv: A is fine with me!
> > >>
> > >> I’d suggest:
> > >>     Thus, the IGP advertisement and flooding mechanisms need to be
> > >>     leveraged for PCE discovery and capabilities advertisement.
> > >>
> > >> However, I don’t feel that strongly and would be happy with A.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> 11) <!--[rfced] We have received guidance from Benoit Claise and the
> YANG
> > >> Doctors that "YANG module" and "YANG data model" are preferred.
> > >> We have updated the text to use these forms.  Please review.
> > >>
> > >> Original:
> > >> The YANG model for PCEP [I-D.ietf-pce-pcep-yang] supports PCEP
> > >> security parameters (key, key chain, and TLS).
> > >>
> > >> Current:
> > >> The YANG module for PCEP [I-D.ietf-pce-pcep-yang] supports PCEP
> > >> security parameters (key, key chain, and TLS). -->
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Dhruv: Ack
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> 12) <!--[rfced] We suggest rephrasing this sentence for the ease of
> the
> > >>     reader. Does the following suggestion retain your intended
> > >>     meaning?
> > >>
> > >> Original:
> > >> Thus, before advertising the PCEP security parameters, using the
> > >> mechanism described in this document, the IGP MUST be known to provide
> > >> authentication and integrity for the PCED TLV using the mechanisms
> > >> defined in [RFC5304], [RFC5310] or [RFC5709].
> > >>
> > >> Perhaps:
> > >> Thus, before advertising the PCEP security parameters by using the
> > >> mechanism described in this document, the IGP MUST be known to provide
> > >> authentication and integrity for the PCED TLV using the mechanisms
> > >> defined in [RFC5304], [RFC5310], or [RFC5709]. -->
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Dhruv: It does! Happy with the rephrase!
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> 13) <!--[rfced] Should the title change for the following IANA
> registry?
> > >>     We note that RFC 5086 expanded PCED on first use and capped
> > >>     "sub-" when in a title.  If these changes are agreeable, we will
> > >>     communicate them to IANA during AUTH48 and update the text of
> > >>     this document accordingly.  See:
> > >>
> https://www.iana.org/assignments/igp-parameters/igp-parameters.xhtml:
> > >>
> > >> Current:
> > >> PCED sub-TLV Type Indicator
> > >>
> > >> Perhaps:
> > >> PCE Discovery (PCED) Sub-TLV Type Indicator
> > >>
> > >>> From RFC 5089:
> > >>   This document defines a new sub-TLV (named the PCE Discovery (PCED))
> > >>   to be carried within the IS-IS Router Capability TLV ([RFC4971]).
> > >> -->
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Dhruv: Happy with the change!
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> 14) <!-- [rfced] RFC 2385 has been obsoleted by RFC 5925. Would the
> following update be agreeable?  We note that RFC 5925 is already in the
> References section.
> > >>
> > >> Original:
> > >>   As described in Section 10.2 of [RFC5440], an PCEP speaker MUST
> > >>   support TCP MD5 [RFC2385], so no capability advertisement is needed
> > >>   to indicate support.
> > >>
> > >> Perhaps:
> > >>   As described in Section 10.2 of [RFC5440], an PCEP speaker MUST
> > >>   support TCP MD5 [RFC2385], so no capability advertisement is needed
> > >>   to indicate support.  (Note that RFC 2385 has been obsoleted by RFC
> > >>   5925.)
> > >> -->
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Dhruv: I think the reference RFC2385 itself needs to change. I see
> two option, we could either -
> > >>
> > >> A: Not using any reference, I see published RFCs which include the
> term "MD5" without a reference as it is quite well-known.
> > >> B: Use the reference as RFC 1321 (can also say that is obsoleted by
> RFC 5925)
> > >>
> > >> I think it should be “a PCEP speaker” rather than “an PCEP speaker
> since neither “P” or “Path” would be preceded by “an”.
> > >> I don’t feel strongly about the reference – FBOW MD5 is deployed.
> Either option is fine with me stating that it has been
> > >> obsoleted.
> > >>
> > >> I would like to know the opinion of the RFC editor team and others in
> CC!
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> 15) <!-- [rfced] Would you like the references to be alphabetized
> > >> or left in their current order?-->
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Dhruv: Please alphabetize them.
> > >>
> > >> 16) <!-- [rfced] We note that the URL provided for the reference below
> > >>     goes to a page titled "Unicode Security Considerations" instead
> > >>     of "Character Encoding Model". Please let us know how we should
> > >>     update this reference.
> > >>
> > >> Original:
> > >>   [UTR36]    Davis, M., "Unicode Technical Report #36, Character
> > >>              Encoding Model",
> > >>              UTR17 https://www.unicode.org/unicode/reports/tr36/,
> > >>              February 2005. -->
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Dhruv: Thanks for spotting this! Please correct this to ->
> > >>
> > >> Davis, M., Ed. and M. Suignard, Ed., "Unicode Security
> Considerations", Unicode Technical Report #36, August 2010, <
> http://unicode.org/reports/tr36/>.
> > >>
> > >> This is what I see in RFC 9003.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> 17) <!-- [rfced] We had the following questions related to
> terminology use
> > >>     throughout the document:
> > >>
> > >> a) We see the following variations with regard to spacing,
> > >> hyphenation, and capping. Please review occurrences and let us know
> > >> if/how these may be made consistent.
> > >>
> > >> key-chain vs. keychain vs. key chain
> > >>
> > >> Dhruv: key chain
> > >>
> > >> Agreed. This is consistent with RFC 8177.
> > >>
> > >> Thanks,
> > >> Acee
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> key-chain name vs. Key Chain Name vs. keychain name
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Dhruv: key chain name (and capitalize based on context)
> > >>
> > >> Also in section 3.3.1, the field name "Key Name" should be "Key Chain
> Name" to align with 3.3.2
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Note we see both Key Chain Name sub-TLV and KEY-CHAIN-NAME sub-TLV as
> well.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Dhruv: Use KEY-CHAIN-NAME sub-TLV
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> b) We see the following mixed use of KeyID and Key ID (spacing).  May
> > >> these be made uniform?  If so, how may we update?
> > >>
> > >> ...[RFC5925] (referred to as KeyID).
> > >> vs.
> > >> KeyID: The one octet Key ID as per [RFC5925]
> > >> (Note: we assume KEY-ID sub-TLV should remain as is).
> > >> -->
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Dhruv: My preference is for KeyID and yes when referring to sub-TLV
> it should be KEY-ID sub-TLV.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> 18) <!-- [rfced] Please review the "Inclusive Language" portion of
> the online Style Guide
> > >> <https://www.rfc-editor.org/styleguide/part2/#inclusive_language>
> and let
> > >> us know if any changes are needed. For example, please consider
> whether
> > >> the term "Master Key Tuple (MKT)" should be updated.
> > >>
> > >> Original:
> > >> KeyID: The one octet Key ID as per [RFC5925] to uniquely identify
> > >> the Master Key Tuple (MKT). -->
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Dhruv: No change is needed.
> > >>
> > >> Thanks!
> > >> Dhruv
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Thank you.
> > >>
> > >> RFC Editor/mc/mf
> > >>
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> > >> RFC Editor
> > >>
> > >> --------------------------------------
> > >> RFC9353 (draft-ietf-lsr-pce-discovery-security-support-13)
> > >>
> > >> Title            : IGP extension for PCEP security capability support
> in PCE discovery
> > >> Author(s)        : D. Lopez, Q. Wu, D. Dhody, Q. Ma, D. King
> > >> WG Chair(s)      : Acee Lindem, Christian Hopps
> > >> Area Director(s) : Alvaro Retana, John Scudder, Andrew Alston
> > >>
> > >
> >
>
>