Re: [AVTCORE] I-D Action: draft-ietf-payload-rtp-ttml-06.txt

[James Sandford <[e-mail]>]

Shall do. Thanks Martin & Barry.

Regards,
James.

==========
James Sandford
R&D Project Engineer

BBC Research and Development
5th Floor
Dock House
MediaCityUK
Salford
M50 2LH

Tel: 030304 (09549)
Web: http://www.bbc.co.uk/rd

________________________________________
From: Barry Leiba [[e-mail]]
Sent: 23 November 2019 00:52
To: Martin J. Dürst
Cc: James Sandford; Roni Even; [e-mail]
Subject: Re: I-D Action: draft-ietf-payload-rtp-ttml-06.txt

Nice; thanks for the review, Martin.

James, please keep this in your notes and we can handle it during AUTH48.

Barry

On Sat, Nov 23, 2019 at 8:43 AM Martin J. Dürst <[e-mail]> wrote:
>
> Hello James,
>
> Many thank again for your quick followup.
>
> On 2019/11/22 20:04, James Sandford wrote:
> > Thank you. This helps a lot.
> >
> > The capitalisation is a mistake. Thanks for spotting.
> >
> > I think I agree with your points on the first sentence of the abstract and I understand your point on the use of "live workflows".
> >
> > Proposed changes:
> >
> >      Remove the workflows section of the first sentence in the abstract. Updated wording:
> >          This memo describes a Real-time Transport Protocol (RTP) payload format for TTML, an XML based timed text format from W3C.
> >
> >      Replace instances of "live workflows" with "streaming workflows".
> >
> >      Fix capitalisation mentioned.
> >
> > Would that be acceptable?
>
> That would be great.
>
> Regards,   Martin.
>
> > Regards,
> > James
> >
> >
> > ==========
> > James Sandford
> > R&D Project Engineer
> >
> > BBC Research and Development
> > 5th Floor
> > Dock House
> > MediaCityUK
> > Salford
> > M50 2LH
> >
> > Tel: 030304 (09549)
> > Web: http://www.bbc.co.uk/rd
> >
> > ________________________________________
> > From: Martin J. Dürst [[e-mail]]
> > Sent: 22 November 2019 10:55
> > To: James Sandford; Barry Leiba; Roni Even
> > Cc: [e-mail]
> > Subject: Re: I-D Action: draft-ietf-payload-rtp-ttml-06.txt
> >
> > Hello James,
> >
> > On 2019/11/22 19:01, James Sandford wrote:
> >> Could you expand? Workflow feels like the correct term for the context of moving the media between endpoints in a generic sense to me.
> >
> > What doesn't work for me is that the first sentence in the Abstract says
> > "TTML, an XML based timed text format for live and file based workflows
> > from W3C". What does TTML *itself* have to do with workflows, other than
> > that any kind of data format whatever can be integrated into dozens if
> > not hundreds of different workflows?
> >
> > Looking at the document a bit more, I also found one instance where
> > "Television Workflows" is capitalized, which surprises me, but may
> > indicate that "workflow" has a somewhat specific use in the TV industry.
> >
> > Also, in the last instance of "workflow" in the document, it is
> > "streaming workflows" rather than "live workflows". To me, "streaming"
> > sounds like the better word (for the second sentence of the abstract),
> > because it's less specific to TV, and my understanding (as an outsider)
> > would be that this RTP Payload is not restricted to live broadcasts, but
> > can also be used for streaming pre-recorded programming.
> >
> > Hope this helps.
> >
> > Regards,   Martin.
> >
> >> Regards,
> >> James
> >>
> >> ==========
> >> James Sandford
> >> R&D Project Engineer
> >>
> >> BBC Research and Development
> >> 5th Floor
> >> Dock House
> >> MediaCityUK
> >> Salford
> >> M50 2LH
> >>
> >> Tel: 030304 (09549)
> >> Web: http://www.bbc.co.uk/rd
> >>
> >> ________________________________________
> >> From: Martin J. Dürst [[e-mail]]
> >> Sent: 22 November 2019 08:57
> >> To: James Sandford; Barry Leiba; Roni Even
> >> Cc: [e-mail]
> >> Subject: Re: I-D Action: draft-ietf-payload-rtp-ttml-06.txt
> >>
> >> Hello James,
> >>
> >> Many thanks for your fast reply.
> >>
> >> On 2019/11/22 16:56, James Sandford wrote:
> >>> Hello,
> >>> Thanks for your comments. I don't believe "workflow" is broadcast specific. I've seen it used in the context of many processes where multiple actors handle something in sequence. This includes manufacturing workflows, software development workflows, and even RFC creation. From the tools.ietf.org page:
> >>>
> >>>        The New Internet Draft Submission Tool replaces the older Draft Submission Tool and the even older email submission workflow
> >>>
> >>> Are you unfamiliar with the term "workflow" or suggesting its inappropriate in this context?
> >>
> >> The later, not the former. (In the context of your other examples above,
> >> the word workflow seems very natural to me.)
> >>
> >> Regards,   Martin.
> >>
> >>> Regards,
> >>> James
> >>>
> >>> ==========
> >>> James Sandford
> >>> R&D Project Engineer
> >>>
> >>> BBC Research and Development
> >>> 5th Floor
> >>> Dock House
> >>> MediaCityUK
> >>> Salford
> >>> M50 2LH
> >>>
> >>> Tel: 030304 (09549)
> >>> Web: http://www.bbc.co.uk/rd
> >>>
> >>> ________________________________________
> >>> From: Martin J. Dürst [[e-mail]]
> >>> Sent: 22 November 2019 07:02
> >>> To: Barry Leiba; Roni Even; James Sandford
> >>> Cc: [e-mail]
> >>> Subject: Fwd: I-D Action: draft-ietf-payload-rtp-ttml-06.txt
> >>>
> >>> Sorry that this only just now cought my eye, but the document is in the
> >>> RFC Editor's queue for only 1 day yet, and I think there are serious
> >>> editorial changes that would improve the document quite a bit.
> >>>
> >>> The document mentions the word "workflow" to describe TTML several
> >>> times, in particular two times in the abstract. This was surprising to
> >>> me because while I have been involved in W3C for a long time, I have
> >>> never heard the word "workflow" in connection with TTTML.
> >>>
> >>> I just checked, and indeed Timed Text Markup Language 2 (TTML2)
> >>> (W3C Recommendation 08 November 2018, https://www.w3.org/TR/ttml2/)
> >>> doesn't mention the word "workflow" a single time. The way TTML
> >>> describes itself is:
> >>>
> >>>        The Timed Text Markup Language is a content type that
> >>>        represents timed text media for the purpose of interchange
> >>>        among authoring systems. Timed text is textual information
> >>>        that is intrinsically or extrinsically associated with
> >>>        timing information.
> >>>
> >>> The word "workflow" may have a very specific meaning in the television
> >>> industry, which lead the author of this document to choose this word,
> >>> but it is very confusing for readers not familiar with such terminology.
> >>> So in order to avoid such confusion, I strongly suggest to
> >>> remove/replace the word "workflow" from the document, and in particular
> >>> from the abstract. Given the nature of RTP, it seems to me that it's
> >>> pretty obvious that a payload format is needed for 'live' use cases, and
> >>> not for file transfer (which may be done with HTTP or FTP or whatever
> >>> else). So I don't think there is a need to bring in the specific
> >>> viewpoint of the TV industry and therewith confuse people from other
> >>> industries and describe TTML in a completely different way than people
> >>> in general are understanding it.
> >>>
> >>> Sorry this got a bit long, but I hope I got my point across. If I should
> >>> send this somewhere else, please tell me.
> >>>
> >>> Regards,   Martin.
> >> .
> >>
> > .
> >