Re: [bfcpbis] AUTH48 [JM]: RFC 8855 <draft-ietf-bfcpbis-rfc4582bis-16.txt> NOW AVAILABLE
Jean Mahoney <jmahoney@amsl.com> Mon, 28 September 2020 22:39 UTC
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To: "Charles Eckel (eckelcu)" <eckelcu@cisco.com>, Roman Shpount <roman@telurix.com>, "Charles Eckel (eckelcu)" <eckelcu=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
Cc: Alan Ford <alan.ford@gmail.com>, "jo@comnet.tkk.fi" <jo@comnet.tkk.fi>, "bfcpbis-chairs@ietf.org" <bfcpbis-chairs@ietf.org>, "bfcpbis@ietf.org" <bfcpbis@ietf.org>, Gonzalo Camarillo <gonzalo.camarillo@ericsson.com>, Keith Drage <drageke@ntlworld.com>, "bfcpbis-ads@ietf.org" <bfcpbis-ads@ietf.org>, Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com>, "mary.ietf.barnes@gmail.com" <mary.ietf.barnes@gmail.com>, "tom@kristensen.larvik.no" <tom@kristensen.larvik.no>, RFC Editor <rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org>
References: <20200505062106.40196F4072C@rfc-editor.org> <20200505062634.GA22852@rfc-editor.org> <90116eda-0692-e727-8901-98aeeb578e6e@amsl.com> <FFB537B8-6FD4-4D8C-AC4A-9DB4CC9411DE@cisco.com> <09c10dfd-9d48-49b7-764b-a41923c90186@amsl.com> <45c39325-5f5b-6161-304e-91beae81dd20@ntlworld.com> <089754DF-62D6-4544-9B9D-FA3DD18C5F57@cisco.com> <AM0PR07MB38607B50A6FE921CD2288C6493200@AM0PR07MB3860.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com> <620E4721-DE3D-4091-8E4D-5AB7535478C4@cisco.com> <AM0PR07MB3860B2C54BCAB8CDF86BA23C93200@AM0PR07MB3860.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com> <D5B11705-0744-4FFB-8244-EF38FCBB27F2@cisco.com> <2D1DB7B6-184E-4B96-9E29-4127AF5B6A00@gmail.com> <84F3EE2D-9ED9-454F-99B0-2FA7C6DAD54F@cisco.com> <CAD5OKxtoh0ptboh3E-nrQsvQXZKZk+Je+S+5O3Moi_2hPWSa-w@mail.gmail.com> <FA9141D6-1581-4B52-B7B2-91B2B6CC8A14@cisco.com> <312fe819-6713-0ef5-9af1-f737970c3ee8@amsl.com> <2DFE829C-DCF0-49E0-B4D3-94975FF8AFE1@cisco.com>
From: Jean Mahoney <jmahoney@amsl.com>
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Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2020 17:39:12 -0500
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Subject: Re: [bfcpbis] AUTH48 [JM]: RFC 8855 <draft-ietf-bfcpbis-rfc4582bis-16.txt> NOW AVAILABLE
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Charles, We have moved the RFC 8445 reference to the Normative References section. The files have been posted here: https://www.rfc-editor.org/authors/rfc8855.txt https://www.rfc-editor.org/authors/rfc8855.pdf https://www.rfc-editor.org/authors/rfc8855.html https://www.rfc-editor.org/authors/rfc8855.xml https://www.rfc-editor.org/authors/rfc8855-lastdiff.html (this change) https://www.rfc-editor.org/authors/rfc8855-auth48diff.html (AUTH48 changes) https://www.rfc-editor.org/authors/rfc8855-diff.html (all changes) Best regards, RFC Editor/jm On 9/28/20 5:13 PM, Charles Eckel (eckelcu) wrote: > > Hi Jean, > > Yes, please do. > > Thanks, > > Charles > > *From: *Jean Mahoney <jmahoney@amsl.com> > *Date: *Monday, September 28, 2020 at 3:10 PM > *To: *Charles Eckel <eckelcu@cisco.com>, Roman Shpount > <roman@telurix.com>, "Charles Eckel (eckelcu)" > <eckelcu=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org> > *Cc: *Alan Ford <alan.ford@gmail.com>, Joerg Ott <jo@comnet.tkk.fi>, > "bfcpbis-chairs@ietf.org" <bfcpbis-chairs@ietf.org>, > "bfcpbis@ietf.org" <bfcpbis@ietf.org>, Gonzalo Camarillo > <gonzalo.camarillo@ericsson.com>, Keith Drage <drageke@ntlworld.com>, > "bfcpbis-ads@ietf.org" <bfcpbis-ads@ietf.org>, Christer Holmberg > <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com>, Mary Barnes > <mary.ietf.barnes@gmail.com>, "tom@kristensen.larvik.no" > <tom@kristensen.larvik.no>, RFC Editor <rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org> > *Subject: *Re: [bfcpbis] AUTH48 [JM]: RFC 8855 > <draft-ietf-bfcpbis-rfc4582bis-16.txt> NOW AVAILABLE > > Hi Charles, > > Shall I proceed with moving the reference to RFC 8445 from informative > to normative? > > Thanks! > > RFC Editor/jm > > On 9/22/20 3:26 PM, Charles Eckel (eckelcu) wrote: > > Thanks Roman. > > Your review and confirmation of this approach is very helpful and > is much appreciated. > > Cheers, > > Charles > > *From: *Roman Shpount <roman@telurix.com> <mailto:roman@telurix.com> > *Date: *Tuesday, September 22, 2020 at 1:20 PM > *To: *"Charles Eckel (eckelcu)" > <eckelcu=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org> > <mailto:eckelcu=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org> > *Cc: *Alan Ford <alan.ford@gmail.com> > <mailto:alan.ford@gmail.com>, Joerg Ott <jo@comnet.tkk.fi> > <mailto:jo@comnet.tkk.fi>, "bfcpbis-chairs@ietf.org" > <mailto:bfcpbis-chairs@ietf.org> <bfcpbis-chairs@ietf.org> > <mailto:bfcpbis-chairs@ietf.org>, "bfcpbis@ietf.org" > <mailto:bfcpbis@ietf.org> <bfcpbis@ietf.org> > <mailto:bfcpbis@ietf.org>, Gonzalo Camarillo > <gonzalo.camarillo@ericsson.com> > <mailto:gonzalo.camarillo@ericsson.com>, Keith Drage > <drageke@ntlworld.com> <mailto:drageke@ntlworld.com>, > "bfcpbis-ads@ietf.org" <mailto:bfcpbis-ads@ietf.org> > <bfcpbis-ads@ietf.org> <mailto:bfcpbis-ads@ietf.org>, Christer > Holmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com> > <mailto:christer.holmberg@ericsson.com>, Jean Mahoney > <jmahoney@amsl.com> <mailto:jmahoney@amsl.com>, Mary Barnes > <mary.ietf.barnes@gmail.com> <mailto:mary.ietf.barnes@gmail.com>, > "tom@kristensen.larvik.no" <mailto:tom@kristensen.larvik.no> > <tom@kristensen.larvik.no> <mailto:tom@kristensen.larvik.no>, RFC > Editor <rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org> <mailto:rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org> > *Subject: *Re: [bfcpbis] AUTH48 [JM]: RFC 8855 > <draft-ietf-bfcpbis-rfc4582bis-16.txt> NOW AVAILABLE > *Resent-From: *<alias-bounces@ietf.org> > <mailto:alias-bounces@ietf.org> > *Resent-To: *Keith Drage <drageke@ntlworld.com> > <mailto:drageke@ntlworld.com>, Charles Eckel <eckelcu@cisco.com> > <mailto:eckelcu@cisco.com> > *Resent-Date: *Tuesday, September 22, 2020 at 1:20 PM > > Hi Charles, > > Per your request, I have reviewed this as and this looks like a > correct way to proceed. > > Best Regards, > > _____________ > Roman Shpount > > On Thu, Sep 17, 2020 at 4:09 PM Charles Eckel (eckelcu) > <eckelcu=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org > <mailto:40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org>> wrote: > > Great, thanks Alan. > > Cheers, > Charles > > On 9/17/20, 11:27 AM, "Alan Ford" <alan.ford@gmail.com > <mailto:alan.ford@gmail.com>> wrote: > > Charles, all, > > This seems the correct way to proceed. These are clearly > normative references, and as regards 5389 vs 8489, 8445 > references 5389 normatively anyway so if we changed that we > would diverge from 8445. > > Best regards, > Alan > > > On 15 Sep 2020, at 16:53, Charles Eckel (eckelcu) > <eckelcu=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org > <mailto:40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org>> wrote: > > > > Thanks Christer. > > > > To recap, the updated proposal is to: > > > > 1) maintain the normative reference to RFC 5389 STUN > rather than replace it with a reference to RFC 8489 > > 2) update the reference to RFC 5245 ICE to RFC 8445 ICE > (this change has already been made a result of AUTH 48) > > 3) make the informative reference to RFC 8445 ICE a > normative reference to be consistent with the normative > reference to RFC 5389 STUN and with the normative reference to > RFC 8845 ICE in rfc4583bis. > > > > Christer, please confirm if I have capture this correctly. > > Everyone else, your feedback here is greatly appreciated > as well. > > > > Cheers, > > Charles > > > > On 9/15/20, 8:13 AM, "Christer Holmberg" > <christer.holmberg=40ericsson.com@dmarc.ietf.org > <mailto:40ericsson.com@dmarc.ietf.org>> wrote: > > > > Hi, > > > > ... > > > >>>> 2) make the reference to RFC 5389/STUN an informative > reference as is already done for RFC 5245/ICE > >>> > >>> My suggestion would actually be to update the ICE > reference to RFC 8445. Again, that would align with other C238 > cluster documents that reference ICE. > >> > >> [cue] Good point. This reference has already been > updated to RFC 8445 as part of AUTH-48. > > > > Good. > > > >>> And, in RFC 8445 STUN is a *normative* reference. > >> > >> [cue] In rfc4582bis, the reference to ICE is currently > Informative, whereas the reference to STUN is Normative. I > believe they should either both be Normative or both be > Informative. > >> Do you happen to know which way would be more > consistent with similar references to STUN/ICE in cluster > C238? In rfc4583bis, the reference to ICE is currently Normative. > > > > Correct. rfc4583bis actually defines ICE procedures > for BFCP, so Normative is fine. > > > > 4582bis contains the following sentence: > > > > "In order to facilitate the initial establishment > of NAT bindings, and > > to maintain those bindings once established, BFCP > entities using an > > unreliable transport are RECOMMENDED to use STUN > [12] Binding > > Indication for keep-alives, as described for ICE > [17]." > > > > As you can see, it is actually described in the ICE > spec on how to use STUN. So, therefore I agree that both > should be either Normative or Informative. And, since there is > a "RECOMMENDED", I assume that means they would have to be > Normative. > > > > Regards, > > > > Christer > > > > > > > > On 5/21/20, 1:55 PM, "Keith Drage" > <drageke@ntlworld.com <mailto:drageke@ntlworld.com>> wrote: > > > > I do note that the normative requirement is > at SHOULD strength. > > > > However there are no statements that support > an implementor to decide > > under what conditions the requirement can be > ignored, or the > > consequences of ignoring, one or other of > which should really be there. > > > > The lack of that information does not help in > trying to evaluate the > > consequences of updating the reference, > versus leaving the reference as > > it is - note that there is a risk both ways. > > > > The quick review I did, resulted in my > feeling that the upgrade would be > > OK, but I am not an expert in that area. > Certainly I think either way it > > should go to the WG for a quick review. > > > > Keith > > > > On 21/05/2020 19:09, Jean Mahoney wrote: > >> Hi Charles, > >> > >> On 5/21/20 11:31 AM, Charles Eckel (eckelcu) wrote: > >>> Hi Jean, > >>> > >>> I am more comfortable sticking with RFC 5389 at this > point in time. > >> > >> > >> Ack. > >> > >> > >>> That said, I know that in another thread Christer made > the point of > >>> being consistent across the cluster in terms of > referencing RFC 5389 > >>> vs. RFC 8489. If the decision is for the cluster > switch to RFC 8489, > >>> we can consider that. However, I think we would need > to take it back > >>> to the working group to see if there are any issues > because I do not > >>> believe the working group was not tracking this update > and did not > >>> anticipate its publication. > >> > >> > >> FWIW, so far, the one C238 document that has updated > their STUN > >> reference to RFC 8489 has an informative ref to it, not > a normative one. > >> > >> Thanks! > >> > >> RFC Editor/jm > >> > >> > >>> > >>> Cheers, > >>> Charles > >>> > >>> On 5/20/20, 12:36 PM, "Jean Mahoney" > <jmahoney@amsl.com <mailto:jmahoney@amsl.com>> wrote: > >>> > >>> Authors, > >>> > >>> We note that this document has a normative > reference to RFC 5389 > >>> (STUN), > >>> which was obsoleted just recently by RFC 8489. Do > you wish to > >>> update > >>> this reference to RFC 8489? > >>> > >>> Thanks! > >>> > >>> RFC Editor/jm > >>> > >>> > > > > _______________________________________________ > > bfcpbis mailing list > > bfcpbis@ietf.org <mailto:bfcpbis@ietf.org> > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bfcpbis > <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bfcpbis> > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > bfcpbis mailing list > > bfcpbis@ietf.org <mailto:bfcpbis@ietf.org> > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bfcpbis > > > _______________________________________________ > bfcpbis mailing list > bfcpbis@ietf.org <mailto:bfcpbis@ietf.org> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bfcpbis >
- Re: [bfcpbis] AUTH48 [JM]: RFC 8855 <draft-ietf-b… Charles Eckel (eckelcu)
- Re: [bfcpbis] AUTH48 [JM]: RFC 8855 <draft-ietf-b… Christer Holmberg
- Re: [bfcpbis] AUTH48 [JM]: RFC 8855 <draft-ietf-b… Christer Holmberg
- Re: [bfcpbis] AUTH48 [JM]: RFC 8855 <draft-ietf-b… Charles Eckel (eckelcu)
- Re: [bfcpbis] AUTH48 [JM]: RFC 8855 <draft-ietf-b… Christer Holmberg
- Re: [bfcpbis] AUTH48 [JM]: RFC 8855 <draft-ietf-b… Charles Eckel (eckelcu)
- Re: [bfcpbis] AUTH48 [JM]: RFC 8855 <draft-ietf-b… Christer Holmberg
- Re: [bfcpbis] AUTH48 [JM]: RFC 8855 <draft-ietf-b… Alan Ford
- Re: [bfcpbis] AUTH48 [JM]: RFC 8855 <draft-ietf-b… Charles Eckel (eckelcu)
- Re: [bfcpbis] AUTH48 [JM]: RFC 8855 <draft-ietf-b… Roman Shpount
- Re: [bfcpbis] AUTH48 [JM]: RFC 8855 <draft-ietf-b… Charles Eckel (eckelcu)
- Re: [bfcpbis] AUTH48 [JM]: RFC 8855 <draft-ietf-b… Jean Mahoney
- Re: [bfcpbis] AUTH48 [JM]: RFC 8855 <draft-ietf-b… Charles Eckel (eckelcu)
- Re: [bfcpbis] AUTH48 [JM]: RFC 8855 <draft-ietf-b… Jean Mahoney
- Re: [bfcpbis] AUTH48 [JM]: RFC 8855 <draft-ietf-b… Charles Eckel (eckelcu)
- [bfcpbis] FW: [AD] 2119/8174 related question - R… Charles Eckel (eckelcu)
- Re: [bfcpbis] REMINDER Re: AUTH48 [JM]: RFC 8855 … Charles Eckel (eckelcu)