Re: [bfcpbis] AUTH48 [JM]: RFC 8855 <draft-ietf-bfcpbis-rfc4582bis-16.txt> NOW AVAILABLE
Jean Mahoney <jmahoney@amsl.com> Mon, 28 September 2020 22:09 UTC
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To: "Charles Eckel (eckelcu)" <eckelcu@cisco.com>, Roman Shpount <roman@telurix.com>, "Charles Eckel (eckelcu)" <eckelcu=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
Cc: Alan Ford <alan.ford@gmail.com>, "jo@comnet.tkk.fi" <jo@comnet.tkk.fi>, "bfcpbis-chairs@ietf.org" <bfcpbis-chairs@ietf.org>, "bfcpbis@ietf.org" <bfcpbis@ietf.org>, Gonzalo Camarillo <gonzalo.camarillo@ericsson.com>, Keith Drage <drageke@ntlworld.com>, "bfcpbis-ads@ietf.org" <bfcpbis-ads@ietf.org>, Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com>, "mary.ietf.barnes@gmail.com" <mary.ietf.barnes@gmail.com>, "tom@kristensen.larvik.no" <tom@kristensen.larvik.no>, RFC Editor <rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org>
References: <20200505062106.40196F4072C@rfc-editor.org> <20200505062634.GA22852@rfc-editor.org> <90116eda-0692-e727-8901-98aeeb578e6e@amsl.com> <FFB537B8-6FD4-4D8C-AC4A-9DB4CC9411DE@cisco.com> <09c10dfd-9d48-49b7-764b-a41923c90186@amsl.com> <45c39325-5f5b-6161-304e-91beae81dd20@ntlworld.com> <089754DF-62D6-4544-9B9D-FA3DD18C5F57@cisco.com> <AM0PR07MB38607B50A6FE921CD2288C6493200@AM0PR07MB3860.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com> <620E4721-DE3D-4091-8E4D-5AB7535478C4@cisco.com> <AM0PR07MB3860B2C54BCAB8CDF86BA23C93200@AM0PR07MB3860.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com> <D5B11705-0744-4FFB-8244-EF38FCBB27F2@cisco.com> <2D1DB7B6-184E-4B96-9E29-4127AF5B6A00@gmail.com> <84F3EE2D-9ED9-454F-99B0-2FA7C6DAD54F@cisco.com> <CAD5OKxtoh0ptboh3E-nrQsvQXZKZk+Je+S+5O3Moi_2hPWSa-w@mail.gmail.com> <FA9141D6-1581-4B52-B7B2-91B2B6CC8A14@cisco.com>
From: Jean Mahoney <jmahoney@amsl.com>
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Subject: Re: [bfcpbis] AUTH48 [JM]: RFC 8855 <draft-ietf-bfcpbis-rfc4582bis-16.txt> NOW AVAILABLE
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Hi Charles, Shall I proceed with moving the reference to RFC 8445 from informative to normative? Thanks! RFC Editor/jm On 9/22/20 3:26 PM, Charles Eckel (eckelcu) wrote: > > Thanks Roman. > > Your review and confirmation of this approach is very helpful and is > much appreciated. > > Cheers, > > Charles > > *From: *Roman Shpount <roman@telurix.com> > *Date: *Tuesday, September 22, 2020 at 1:20 PM > *To: *"Charles Eckel (eckelcu)" <eckelcu=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org> > *Cc: *Alan Ford <alan.ford@gmail.com>, Joerg Ott <jo@comnet.tkk.fi>, > "bfcpbis-chairs@ietf.org" <bfcpbis-chairs@ietf.org>, > "bfcpbis@ietf.org" <bfcpbis@ietf.org>, Gonzalo Camarillo > <gonzalo.camarillo@ericsson.com>, Keith Drage <drageke@ntlworld.com>, > "bfcpbis-ads@ietf.org" <bfcpbis-ads@ietf.org>, Christer Holmberg > <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com>, Jean Mahoney <jmahoney@amsl.com>, > Mary Barnes <mary.ietf.barnes@gmail.com>, "tom@kristensen.larvik.no" > <tom@kristensen.larvik.no>, RFC Editor <rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org> > *Subject: *Re: [bfcpbis] AUTH48 [JM]: RFC 8855 > <draft-ietf-bfcpbis-rfc4582bis-16.txt> NOW AVAILABLE > *Resent-From: *<alias-bounces@ietf.org> > *Resent-To: *Keith Drage <drageke@ntlworld.com>, Charles Eckel > <eckelcu@cisco.com> > *Resent-Date: *Tuesday, September 22, 2020 at 1:20 PM > > Hi Charles, > > Per your request, I have reviewed this as and this looks like a > correct way to proceed. > > Best Regards, > > _____________ > Roman Shpount > > On Thu, Sep 17, 2020 at 4:09 PM Charles Eckel (eckelcu) > <eckelcu=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org > <mailto:40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org>> wrote: > > Great, thanks Alan. > > Cheers, > Charles > > On 9/17/20, 11:27 AM, "Alan Ford" <alan.ford@gmail.com > <mailto:alan.ford@gmail.com>> wrote: > > Charles, all, > > This seems the correct way to proceed. These are clearly > normative references, and as regards 5389 vs 8489, 8445 references > 5389 normatively anyway so if we changed that we would diverge > from 8445. > > Best regards, > Alan > > > On 15 Sep 2020, at 16:53, Charles Eckel (eckelcu) > <eckelcu=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org > <mailto:40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org>> wrote: > > > > Thanks Christer. > > > > To recap, the updated proposal is to: > > > > 1) maintain the normative reference to RFC 5389 STUN rather > than replace it with a reference to RFC 8489 > > 2) update the reference to RFC 5245 ICE to RFC 8445 ICE > (this change has already been made a result of AUTH 48) > > 3) make the informative reference to RFC 8445 ICE a > normative reference to be consistent with the normative reference > to RFC 5389 STUN and with the normative reference to RFC 8845 ICE > in rfc4583bis. > > > > Christer, please confirm if I have capture this correctly. > > Everyone else, your feedback here is greatly appreciated as > well. > > > > Cheers, > > Charles > > > > On 9/15/20, 8:13 AM, "Christer Holmberg" > <christer.holmberg=40ericsson.com@dmarc.ietf.org > <mailto:40ericsson.com@dmarc.ietf.org>> wrote: > > > > Hi, > > > > ... > > > >>>> 2) make the reference to RFC 5389/STUN an informative > reference as is already done for RFC 5245/ICE > >>> > >>> My suggestion would actually be to update the ICE > reference to RFC 8445. Again, that would align with other C238 > cluster documents that reference ICE. > >> > >> [cue] Good point. This reference has already been updated > to RFC 8445 as part of AUTH-48. > > > > Good. > > > >>> And, in RFC 8445 STUN is a *normative* reference. > >> > >> [cue] In rfc4582bis, the reference to ICE is currently > Informative, whereas the reference to STUN is Normative. I believe > they should either both be Normative or both be Informative. > >> Do you happen to know which way would be more consistent > with similar references to STUN/ICE in cluster C238? In > rfc4583bis, the reference to ICE is currently Normative. > > > > Correct. rfc4583bis actually defines ICE procedures for > BFCP, so Normative is fine. > > > > 4582bis contains the following sentence: > > > > "In order to facilitate the initial establishment of > NAT bindings, and > > to maintain those bindings once established, BFCP > entities using an > > unreliable transport are RECOMMENDED to use STUN [12] > Binding > > Indication for keep-alives, as described for ICE [17]." > > > > As you can see, it is actually described in the ICE spec > on how to use STUN. So, therefore I agree that both should be > either Normative or Informative. And, since there is a > "RECOMMENDED", I assume that means they would have to be Normative. > > > > Regards, > > > > Christer > > > > > > > > On 5/21/20, 1:55 PM, "Keith Drage" > <drageke@ntlworld.com <mailto:drageke@ntlworld.com>> wrote: > > > > I do note that the normative requirement is at > SHOULD strength. > > > > However there are no statements that support an > implementor to decide > > under what conditions the requirement can be > ignored, or the > > consequences of ignoring, one or other of which > should really be there. > > > > The lack of that information does not help in > trying to evaluate the > > consequences of updating the reference, versus > leaving the reference as > > it is - note that there is a risk both ways. > > > > The quick review I did, resulted in my feeling > that the upgrade would be > > OK, but I am not an expert in that area. > Certainly I think either way it > > should go to the WG for a quick review. > > > > Keith > > > > On 21/05/2020 19:09, Jean Mahoney wrote: > >> Hi Charles, > >> > >> On 5/21/20 11:31 AM, Charles Eckel (eckelcu) wrote: > >>> Hi Jean, > >>> > >>> I am more comfortable sticking with RFC 5389 at this point > in time. > >> > >> > >> Ack. > >> > >> > >>> That said, I know that in another thread Christer made the > point of > >>> being consistent across the cluster in terms of > referencing RFC 5389 > >>> vs. RFC 8489. If the decision is for the cluster switch to > RFC 8489, > >>> we can consider that. However, I think we would need to > take it back > >>> to the working group to see if there are any issues > because I do not > >>> believe the working group was not tracking this update and > did not > >>> anticipate its publication. > >> > >> > >> FWIW, so far, the one C238 document that has updated their > STUN > >> reference to RFC 8489 has an informative ref to it, not a > normative one. > >> > >> Thanks! > >> > >> RFC Editor/jm > >> > >> > >>> > >>> Cheers, > >>> Charles > >>> > >>> On 5/20/20, 12:36 PM, "Jean Mahoney" <jmahoney@amsl.com > <mailto:jmahoney@amsl.com>> wrote: > >>> > >>> Authors, > >>> > >>> We note that this document has a normative reference > to RFC 5389 > >>> (STUN), > >>> which was obsoleted just recently by RFC 8489. Do you > wish to > >>> update > >>> this reference to RFC 8489? > >>> > >>> Thanks! > >>> > >>> RFC Editor/jm > >>> > >>> > > > > _______________________________________________ > > bfcpbis mailing list > > bfcpbis@ietf.org <mailto:bfcpbis@ietf.org> > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bfcpbis > <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bfcpbis> > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > bfcpbis mailing list > > bfcpbis@ietf.org <mailto:bfcpbis@ietf.org> > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bfcpbis > > > _______________________________________________ > bfcpbis mailing list > bfcpbis@ietf.org <mailto:bfcpbis@ietf.org> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bfcpbis >
- Re: [bfcpbis] AUTH48 [JM]: RFC 8855 <draft-ietf-b… Charles Eckel (eckelcu)
- Re: [bfcpbis] AUTH48 [JM]: RFC 8855 <draft-ietf-b… Christer Holmberg
- Re: [bfcpbis] AUTH48 [JM]: RFC 8855 <draft-ietf-b… Christer Holmberg
- Re: [bfcpbis] AUTH48 [JM]: RFC 8855 <draft-ietf-b… Charles Eckel (eckelcu)
- Re: [bfcpbis] AUTH48 [JM]: RFC 8855 <draft-ietf-b… Christer Holmberg
- Re: [bfcpbis] AUTH48 [JM]: RFC 8855 <draft-ietf-b… Charles Eckel (eckelcu)
- Re: [bfcpbis] AUTH48 [JM]: RFC 8855 <draft-ietf-b… Christer Holmberg
- Re: [bfcpbis] AUTH48 [JM]: RFC 8855 <draft-ietf-b… Alan Ford
- Re: [bfcpbis] AUTH48 [JM]: RFC 8855 <draft-ietf-b… Charles Eckel (eckelcu)
- Re: [bfcpbis] AUTH48 [JM]: RFC 8855 <draft-ietf-b… Roman Shpount
- Re: [bfcpbis] AUTH48 [JM]: RFC 8855 <draft-ietf-b… Charles Eckel (eckelcu)
- Re: [bfcpbis] AUTH48 [JM]: RFC 8855 <draft-ietf-b… Jean Mahoney
- Re: [bfcpbis] AUTH48 [JM]: RFC 8855 <draft-ietf-b… Charles Eckel (eckelcu)
- Re: [bfcpbis] AUTH48 [JM]: RFC 8855 <draft-ietf-b… Jean Mahoney
- Re: [bfcpbis] AUTH48 [JM]: RFC 8855 <draft-ietf-b… Charles Eckel (eckelcu)
- [bfcpbis] FW: [AD] 2119/8174 related question - R… Charles Eckel (eckelcu)
- Re: [bfcpbis] REMINDER Re: AUTH48 [JM]: RFC 8855 … Charles Eckel (eckelcu)