Re: [Bimi] [rfc-i] SVG P/S Feedback
Phillip Hallam-Baker <phill@hallambaker.com> Mon, 21 September 2020 15:47 UTC
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From: Phillip Hallam-Baker <phill@hallambaker.com>
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2020 11:46:38 -0400
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To: "Brotman, Alex" <Alex_Brotman@comcast.com>
Cc: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>, "rfc-interest@rfc-editor.org" <rfc-interest@rfc-editor.org>, "BIMI (IETF) (bimi@ietf.org)" <bimi@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Bimi] [rfc-i] SVG P/S Feedback
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On Mon, Aug 31, 2020 at 10:34 AM Brotman, Alex <Alex_Brotman@comcast.com> wrote: > Brian, > > We've sort of seen the same issue, though we expect that tools will > catchup over time. That being said, I know that Inkscape does not today > support SVG Tiny 1.2 as an export format. Illustrator does a reasonable > job with Tiny, though seems to have a few bugs during export. I haven't > yet tried Dia or Scribus (I believe it also supports export to SVG). Even > with support in tools lacking today, we'd like to work toward this goal of > creating this format. We've had good success thus far getting images to > conform without skewing the intended representation. > Tooling will not catch up. There is 0% chance of that. SVG Tiny is deprecated. It was created a decade ago for the same community that creates WAP. The notion was that there was a demand for a smaller SVG. There was not. As a result only one major vendor ever supported SVG Tiny and only in one tool And that support will almost certainly be removed in future as all mention of SVG Tiny is removed from the SVG specs. I have tooling that converts SVG Tiny to the IETF subset but the process adds absolutely nothing. It is stupid makework. I get angry every time I have to deal with this crap. The results are not good and cannot be made better without hundreds of hours of effort. The RFDC Interest group has absolutely no interest in even understanding why the situation cannot be made to work for document preparation. Basically there is a group of people who will write no code or even bother to understand the problem that nevertheless insist that the decision they took with no understanding of the issues five years ago must stand for all time. To understand the problem, look at https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-hallambaker-mesh-architecture-14.html Scroll down to figure 3 and you will notice the arrows aren't there. Nor are some of the symbols. The problem is that every program that generates SVG output uses macros to generate the line endings. That is why they exist in the first place. But SVG tiny doesn't have that capability so the line endings are lost. The issue with the symbols is that even though the RFCs are unicode and the symbols used are very common, there is no specification of which symbols the tools accept. If you understand how SVG is used you will quickly understand the reason why there is absolutely no chance of it being more widely supported. Nobody uses this format so there is zero demand for it. The implementation effort is non trivial. It requires someone to write a full SVG stack and render to SVG Tiny. People used to do that stuff back in the 2000s before the iPhone came out and people suddenly realized that mobile devices were not going to be running a 'Web Lite'.
- [Bimi] SVG P/S Feedback Brotman, Alex
- Re: [Bimi] [rfc-i] SVG P/S Feedback Leonard Rosenthol
- Re: [Bimi] SVG P/S Feedback Jakub Olexa
- Re: [Bimi] [rfc-i] SVG P/S Feedback Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Bimi] [rfc-i] SVG P/S Feedback Larry Masinter
- Re: [Bimi] [rfc-i] SVG P/S Feedback Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Bimi] [rfc-i] SVG P/S Feedback Leonard Rosenthol
- Re: [Bimi] [rfc-i] SVG P/S Feedback Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Bimi] [rfc-i] SVG P/S Feedback Leonard Rosenthol
- Re: [Bimi] [rfc-i] SVG P/S Feedback Larry Masinter
- Re: [Bimi] [rfc-i] SVG P/S Feedback Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Bimi] [rfc-i] SVG P/S Feedback Martin J. Dürst
- Re: [Bimi] [rfc-i] SVG P/S Feedback Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Bimi] [rfc-i] SVG P/S Feedback Brotman, Alex
- Re: [Bimi] [rfc-i] SVG P/S Feedback Brotman, Alex
- Re: [Bimi] [rfc-i] SVG P/S Feedback Leonard Rosenthol
- Re: [Bimi] [rfc-i] SVG P/S Feedback John Levine
- Re: [Bimi] [EXTERNAL]Re: [rfc-i] SVG P/S Feedback Kirk Hall
- Re: [Bimi] [rfc-i] SVG P/S Feedback Phillip Hallam-Baker