Re: [bmwg] WG ADOPTION: draft-bhuvan-bmwg-of-controller-benchmarking (terms and meth)

["Bhuvan \(Veryx Technologies\)" <[e-mail]>]

Hello everyone,

Based on the below discussion, I think the term SDN controller definition
has to be refined further in this memo as suggested by Al/Brain.
Also as suggested by Al, we will include the scope statement "If an SDN
controller does not have control capability, the controller is out of scope
for this memo".

Hope this fine with everyone.

Thanks,
Bhuvan

-----Original Message-----
From: bmwg [mailto:[e-mail]] On Behalf Of MORTON, ALFRED C (AL)
Sent: 15 October 2015 03:17
To: Lucien Avramov (lavramov); Castelli, Brian; Jacob Rapp; Boris Hassanov
Cc: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: [bmwg] WG ADOPTION:
draft-bhuvan-bmwg-of-controller-benchmarking (terms and meth)

Hi Lucien,

after agreeing on the beginnings of a definition (the one I dashed-off
below):

  ... function that manages *and* controls SDN switches, <adding more
qualifications>".

the scope police would say, "if you haven't got control capability, the
controller is out of scope for this memo".

ok?
Al

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Lucien Avramov (lavramov) [mailto:[e-mail]]
> Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2015 5:31 PM
> To: MORTON, ALFRED C (AL); Castelli, Brian; Jacob Rapp; Boris Hassanov
> Cc: [e-mail]
> Subject: Re: [bmwg] WG ADOPTION: draft-bhuvan-bmwg-of-controller- 
> benchmarking (terms and meth)
>
> some sdn controllers only 'manage' switches and don't control. Other 
> are in the control plane. It's a very broad terminology prone to a lot 
> of confusion, to be useful, the benchmark needs to clearly test one 
> type of device or scope of performance (data center benchmarking?) and 
> not go into a broad SDN controller term which i agree is not our 
> charter to define.
>
>
>
> On 10/14/15 2:27 PM, MORTON, ALFRED C (AL) wrote:
> > ...and, as I  suggested in a separated thread (approximately), we 
> > say
> >
> > "For the purposes of this memo, the SDN Controller is a
> >
> > function that manages and controls SDN switches, <adding more
> > qualifications>".
> >
> > This is about scope of work, and the title needs to represent the
> scope.
> >
> > Al
> >
> > *From:*Castelli, Brian [mailto:[e-mail]]
> > *Sent:* Wednesday, October 14, 2015 5:21 PM
> > *To:* Jacob Rapp; Boris Hassanov
> > *Cc:* MORTON, ALFRED C (AL); [e-mail]
> > *Subject:* Re: [bmwg] WG ADOPTION:
> > draft-bhuvan-bmwg-of-controller-benchmarking (terms and meth)
> >
> > I think I'm beginning to understand Jacob's reservations about the 
> > claim that this draft covers all SDN controllers. SDN is so broad 
> > that it may include controllers of devices that are not switches, do 
> > not have flows, etc. What if we choose a 3rd alternative: Call this 
> > a benchmark for controllers of SDN switches. That is specific enough 
> > to rule out inappropriate usage while avoiding coupling with one 
> > specific
> protocol.
> > Controlling switches implies many if not all of the tests included 
> > in the draft. Would that satisfy the concerns?
> >
> > *From: *bmwg <[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]>> 
> > on behalf of Jacob Rapp <[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]>>
> > *Date: *Wednesday, October 14, 2015 at 4:09 PM
> > *To: *Boris Hassanov <[e-mail] 
> > <mailto:[e-mail]>>
> > *Cc: *"MORTON, ALFRED C (AL)" <[e-mail] 
> > <mailto:[e-mail]>>, "[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]>"
> > <[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]>>
> > *Subject: *Re: [bmwg] WG ADOPTION:
> > draft-bhuvan-bmwg-of-controller-benchmarking (terms and meth)
> >
> > Also for the RFC 2544 is focused on the data plane not the control
> plane.
> >
> > --
> >
> > Jacob
> >
> >
> > On Oct 14, 2015, at 9:57 PM, Jacob Rapp <[e-mail] 
> > <mailto:[e-mail]>> wrote:
> >
> >     I think it's worth a conversation live. I would argue that
> >     controllers are functionally so different right now, we are not at
> >     the point where we can define this. I would simply take the
> example
> >     of a Cisco ACI controller, VMWare Controller cluster & Open
> Daylight
> >     controllers and apply the standard to them and see the result. I'm
> >     happy to go along a help improve the draft to include them if we
> >     can, but functionally they are so different.
> >
> >     At some point we start defining what an SDN controller is and that
> >     is not our charter.
> >
> >     --
> >
> >     Jacob
> >
> >
> >     On Oct 14, 2015, at 9:34 PM, Boris Hassanov <[e-mail]
> >     <mailto:[e-mail]>> wrote:
> >
> >         Hi all!
> >
> >         My 0,05$:
> >
> >         I would agree with Bhuvan here, IMHO  common methodology for
> >         testing is definitely needed . I see here SDN-controller as
> >         general term, SBIs can be different today and probably there
> >         will be even more of them tomorrow. It will be very hard to
> >         support all of their message details in one draft. May be
> >         hierarchical approach( when details for particular
> SBI/protocol
> >         testing in another document will be correlated/referenced to
> the
> >         general methodology ), could be better in this case.
> >
> >         Jacob, may be this is not perfect example, but we have RFC2544
> >         which defines methodology that can be used for testing of
> >         devices with IPv4, labeled traffic etc.
> >
> >         Thank you.
> >
> >         SY,
> >
> >         Boris
> >
> >         On Tuesday, October 13, 2015 5:02 PM, Bhuvan (Veryx
> >         Technologies) <[e-mail]
> >         <mailto:[e-mail]>> wrote:
> >
> >         Hi Jacop,
> >
> >         Thanks for bringing this point for discussion in the mailing
> >         list. As you mentioned, the functionality of one protocol will
> >         be different from the another one.
> >
> >         But the intent of the draft is to define a generic methodology
> >         to benchmark the controller performance as a black-box basis
> >         independent of protocols it support. For instance, to
> benchmark
> >         the controller message processing rate (throughput), we need
> to
> >         measure the input/output  rate i.e., the input (a.k.a request
> >         such as OpenFlow Packet-ins or BGP route updates or Route
> >         install) to the controller could be from southbound/northbound
> >         interface and the output (response such as OpenFlow
> >         Packet-Out/Flow-Mod or XMPP Publish) could be sent to
> southbound
> >         interface. So this way we want to derive a methodology
> >         abstracting the protocols to benchmark different controller
> >         implementations.
> >
> >         If you feel some definitions or terminologies need to be
> >         clarified further/added, we would be very happy to take such
> >         inputs and work on it.
> >
> >         Thanks,
> >         Bhuvan
> >
> >         -----Original Message-----
> >         From: bmwg [mailto:[e-mail]
> >         <mailto:[e-mail]>] On Behalf Of Jacob Rapp
> >         Sent: 12 October 2015 20:54
> >         To: MORTON, ALFRED C (AL); [e-mail]
> <mailto:[e-mail]>
> >         Subject: Re: [bmwg] WG ADOPTION:
> >         draft-bhuvan-bmwg-of-controller-benchmarking (terms and 
> > meth)
> >
> >         I think the problem that I have is that I'm not sure if the
> >         southbound protocol can really be decoupled here. There are
> very
> >         different functionality if you use one protocol or another. It
> >         may not be a totally fair comparison, but it is like saying I
> >         can write a draft that tests a "router" that tests routing
> >         protocols, but I don't define if it is for OSFP of BGP.
> >         It would be one thing, if you were testing just controller HA,
> >         but the drafts test how the flows or paths or etc are
> >         programmed, which may be different and have special
> terminology
> >         depending on the southbound protocol.
> >
> >         -
> >         Jacob
> >
> >
> >
> >         On 10/12/15, 4:56 PM, "bmwg on behalf of MORTON, ALFRED C
> (AL)"
> >         <[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]> on
> behalf
> >         of [e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]>> wrote:
> >
> >         >BMWG Folks, (this is the thread I was referring to in reply
> to Jacob)
> >         >
> >         >I support the adoption of these drafts as WG items.
> >         >
> >         >I'd also like to see some comments below addressed (e.g.,
> Brian's), if
> >         >they haven't already. We would have to look at controller-
> clusters to
> >         >do add of these metrics, I believe.
> >         >
> >         >regards,
> >         >Al
> >         >(as a participant)
> >         >
> >         >-----Original Message-----
> >         >From: Castelli, Brian [mailto:[e-mail]
> <mailto:[e-mail]>]
> >         >Sent: Monday, June 23, 2014 11:39 AM
> >         >To: Bhuvan (Veryx Technologies); MORTON, ALFRED C (AL);
> 'Banks, Sarah';
> >         >[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]>
> >         >Cc: 'Anton Basil'; 'Vishwas Manral'
> >         >Subject: Re: [bmwg] Feedback for Benchmarking Methodology 
> > for
> OpenFlow
> >         >SDN Controller Performance
> >         >
> >         >I really like Al¹s suggestion to generalize SDN controller
> benchmarking because 1) the ONF effort is OpenFlow specific and 2) 
> OpenFlow does not define SDN. OpenFlow is one of several southbound 
> protocols that can be used between a controller function and network 
> node functions. Regardless of the maturity of current OpenFlow 
> implementations, I believe that we can define a family of benchmarks 
> that have general applicability to SDN environments because there are 
> common functions/services that will be provided independent of protocol.
> At the end of the day, protocols are commodities. It¹s the service 
> they provide that adds value.
> >         >
> >         >The current draft contains many of the elements required to
> sufficiently define a benchmarking methodology for a controller 
> function in an SDN environment. We should follow Al¹s suggestion, 
> define the taxonomy used in the draft, and consolidate wording to make 
> the document easier to read and apply.
> >         >
> >         >What follows is an attempt to define a higher-level set of
> SDN controller test cases. It builds on the work done in the draft. I 
> will provide some detail on the first test case in order to establish 
> a cadence. Subsequent test cases will not have the detail, but the 
> ability to iterate over variables and so on is implied.
> >         >
> >         >The SDN Controller test taxonomy would include:
> >         >
> >         >- Asynchronous Message Response Rate. A test case to 
> > measure
> AMRR would cover a variety of conditions that are analogous to the 
> following OpenFlow-specific events:
> >         >
> >         >  o Packet_in received
> >         >  o Flow expiration received
> >         >  o Link down received
> >         >
> >         >In other words, AMRR would be used to measure the ability 
> > of
> an SDN controller to respond to a variety of asynchronous (i.e.
> unexpected) conditions. One methodology for measurement would be 
> specified by the benchmark. The tester would then apply that 
> methodology to packet_ins, flow expiration, link down, and whatever 
> other AMR testing is appropriate.
> >         >
> >         >The AMRR methodology should include iteration variables and
> goal seeking.
> >         >The tester ought to be able to use the methodology to
> determine, for example, the maximum packet_in AMRR for a variety of 
> conditions, such as variations in the number of connected nodes, the 
> complexity of the packet_ins, and so on. Variables also include 
> negative testing with invalid packets, for example.
> >         >
> >         >- Synchronous Message Response Rate. A test case for
> measuring SMRR
> >         >would cover a variety of conditions analogous to the
> following
> >         >OpenFlow-specific
> >         >events:
> >         >
> >         >  o Hello packet exchange
> >         >  o Echo request/response exchange
> >         >
> >         >- Node Acquisition Rate. A test case for measuring NAR 
> > would
> be a special case of SMRR, but it specifically measures the rate at 
> which an SDN controller can connect to nodes in a network.
> >         >
> >         >- Node Acquisition Maximum. A test case for NAM would 
> > measure
> the maximum number of network nodes that an SDN controller can connect 
> to without error.
> >         >
> >         >- FailOver Response Time. There are at least two test cases
> for measuring FORT. One would measure a control cluster¹s ability to 
> survive a controller failure. How long does it take the controller 
> function to be assumed by another controller element? Another would 
> measure the controller¹s ability to respond to node failures to do 
> things like re-route traffic. How long does it take for the controller 
> to send out commands that handle the error? This is a bit like 
> measuring convergence time, but care must be taken to keep the node 
> variables out of the measurement.
> >         >
> >         >- FailBack Response Time. Test cases for FBRT would be used
> to measure the response time when the controller comes back up or the 
> node comes back online. How long does it take the controller to send 
> the commands that restore service?
> >         >
> >         >
> >         >
> >         >On 6/23/14, 10:53 AM, "Bhuvan (Veryx Technologies)"
> >         ><[e-mail]
> >         <mailto:[e-mail]>> wrote:
> >         >
> >         >>Hi Al,
> >         >>
> >         >>Thanks for your comment. I do agree with you that there
> needs to be a
> >         >>common benchmarking mechanism for controller designs
> performing the
> >         >>same tasks.
> >         >>But the technology is still relatively immature and the
> approach has
> >         >>various dimensions including centralized control vs
> distributed
> >         >>control (controller less).
> >         >>Again the centralized control approach uses different
> programming
> >         >>methods (OpenFlow vs Non OpenFlow).
> >         >>
> >         >>Having said that, for better usability/understanding of 
> > the
> draft and
> >         >>to avoid misinterpretation, I personally feel it would be
> good to have
> >         >>separate benchmarking methodology for each approach 
> > (though
> the
> >         >>metrics remain same).
> >         >>Also we would be happy to continue the effort to extend 
> > the
> same
> >         >>metrics for other approaches too.
> >         >>
> >         >>Please let me know if I've missed something.
> >         >>
> >         >>Sarah/Brain, please also share your thoughts on this.
> >         >>
> >         >>Thanks,
> >         >>Bhuvan
> >         >>
> >         >>-----Original Message-----
> >         >>From: MORTON, ALFRED C (AL) [mailto:[e-mail]
> <mailto:[e-mail]>]
> >         >>Sent: Saturday, June 21, 2014 6:00 PM
> >         >>To: Castelli, Brian; Banks, Sarah; Bhuvan (Veryx
> Technologies);
> >         >>[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]>
> >         >>Cc: 'Anton Basil'; 'Vishwas Manral'
> >         >>Subject: RE: [bmwg] Feedback for Benchmarking Methodology
> for OpenFlow
> >         >>SDN Controller Performance
> >         >>
> >         >>Hi Brian, Sarah, Bhuvan, and all,
> >         >>
> >         >>a couple of quick answers and a comment:
> >         >>
> >         >>> -----Original Message-----
> >         >>> From: bmwg [mailto:[e-mail] <mailto:bmwg-
> [e-mail]>] On Behalf
> >         Of Castelli,
> >         >>> Brian
> >         >>...
> >         >>> My two main concerns are getting the terminology right 
> > and
> making
> >         >>> sure that the proposed set of tests will achieve our
> goals. I
> >         >>> believe those goals ought to include a common taxonomy,
> enabling
> >         >>> apples-to-apples comparisons, and minimizing the 
> > time/work
> required
> >         >>> to execute the test cases.
> >         >>
> >         >>Great, that's exactly what we are chartered to do in BMWG.
> >         >>https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-
> 3A__datatracker.ietf.o
> >
> >>rg_wg_bmwg_charter_&d=BQIFAw&c=Sqcl0Ez6M0X8aeM67LKIiDJAXVeAw-YihVMNt
> >>Xt
> >         >>-
> uEs&r=4eVZvh2C5Un5N5XXv1rh7g&m=4LKgWZFGzgq2ZNUk2Q5XudH3NI16VJ0lK3Dku_
> >         >>GjrhU&s=gJv3CuKB6C3osQoVuA3JGltD3bMZFTfuubj__2xVgMU&e=
> >         >>
> >         >>
> >         >>>
> >         >>> I am willing to help improve the benchmark. I understand
> that it is
> >         >>> an early draft. The time is right to make sure that we are
> >         >>> developing the best specification that we can.
> >         >>>
> >         >>> How do we continue this process? Via email to this list? 
> > I
> am
> >         >>> willing to help.
> >         >>
> >         >>It's principally e-mail (just as you've been doing) and
> face-to-face
> >         >>meetings three times a year.  Sarah mentions that our next
> meeting is
> >         >>in her home town:
> >         >>https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-
> 3A__www.ietf.org_meeti
> >         >>ng_90_index.html&d=BQIFAw&c=Sqcl0Ez6M0X8aeM67LKIiDJAXVeAw-
> YihVMNtXt-uE
> >
> >>s&r=4eVZvh2C5Un5N5XXv1rh7g&m=4LKgWZFGzgq2ZNUk2Q5XudH3NI16VJ0lK3Dku_G
> >>jr
> >         >>hU&s=PyQn5inWQ2S-mFAiKMB3UaRcIfzBr2syenp80SlaYxE&e=
> >         >>
> >         >>Make some text proposals for the draft, and we can discuss
> them on the
> >         >>list.
> >         >>
> >         >>Having said that, and recognizing that there appears to be a
> >         >>comparable activity in ONF that (I assume) is OpenFlow-
> specific,
> >         >>perhaps a way to add value to the industry is to approach
> the SDN
> >         >>controller problem more generically, such that different
> controller
> >         >>designs performing the same tasks could be benchmarked as
> black-boxes.
> >         >>I realize this approach has substantial implications for 
> > the
> draft,
> >         >>but the benefit of wider applicability.
> >         >>
> >         >>food for thought,
> >         >>Al
> >         >>(as a participant)
> >         >>
> >         >>
> >         >
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