[Ietf-caldav] Re: draft-reschke-http-addmember-00
Jeffrey Mogul <Jeff.Mogul@hp.com> Tue, 22 February 2005 18:38 UTC
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From: Jeffrey Mogul <Jeff.Mogul@hp.com>
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To: Jamie Lokier <jamie@shareable.org>
In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 22 Feb 2005 16:15:21 GMT." <20050222161520.GA22555@mail.shareable.org>
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Cc: WebDAV <w3c-dist-auth@w3.org>, CalDAV DevList <ietf-caldav@osafoundation.org>, HTTP Working Group <ietf-http-wg@w3.org>
Subject: [Ietf-caldav] Re: draft-reschke-http-addmember-00
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Jamie Lokier writes: For example, some URLs will treat any method as form submission, even OPTIONS, so users should never ask a client which uses OPTIONS to access those URLs, because that is dangerous. Let's be VERY careful about statements like this. If Jamie means his "should" in a normative sense, then this is flat-out wrong. RFC2616, section 9.1.2, says: ... the methods OPTIONS and TRACE SHOULD NOT have side effects, ... and section 9.2 says: [The OPTIONS] method allows the client to determine the options and/or requirements associated with a resource, or the capabilities of a server, without implying a resource action or initiating a resource retrieval. So any implementation of HTTP (including either a server per se, or its ancillary software!) that "treats any method as a form submission" is manifestly non-compliant with the specification. It is essentially impossible to specify a protocol, let alone evolve it in a compatible way, if one cannot assume that implementations are minimally compliant. (Some might quibble that the "SHOULD" in 9.1.2 gives stupid implementors some cover, but the distinction between "SHOULD" and "MUST" in RFC2119 doesn't apply to stupid implementors.) Without the assumption of compliant implementations, there really is no point in even trying to write specifications. If Jamie is arguing that we need to add new method because implementations are not compliant with the specs for the old methods, that seems to be a recipe for doom. (RFC2616 is already encrusted with some features that were designed to get around the fact that, prior to RFC2068, there was no formally accepted "specification" for HTTP at all; these are the most ugly parts of RFC2616.) There might be other, more plausible arguments for ADDMEMBER (although in this case, I agree fully with Roy: I haven't seen a successful argument made yet). But this argument against using OPTIONS cannot be one of them. -Jeff
- Re: [Ietf-caldav] [Fwd: draft-reschke-http-addmem… Mark Baker
- Re: [Ietf-caldav] [Fwd: draft-reschke-http-addmem… Roy T. Fielding
- Re: [Ietf-caldav] [Fwd: draft-reschke-http-addmem… Mark Baker
- Re: [Ietf-caldav] Re: draft-reschke-http-addmembe… Scott Lawrence
- Re: [Ietf-caldav] [Fwd: draft-reschke-http-addmem… Julian Reschke
- Re: [Ietf-caldav] Re: draft-reschke-http-addmembe… Julian Reschke
- Re: [Ietf-caldav] Re: draft-reschke-http-addmembe… Jamie Lokier
- Re: [Ietf-caldav] [Fwd: draft-reschke-http-addmem… Roy T. Fielding
- Re: [Ietf-caldav] Re: draft-reschke-http-addmembe… Justin Chapweske
- [Ietf-caldav] Re: draft-reschke-http-addmember-00 Julian Reschke
- Re: [Ietf-caldav] Re: draft-reschke-http-addmembe… Julian Reschke
- [Ietf-caldav] Re: draft-reschke-http-addmember-00 Jamie Lokier
- Re: [Ietf-caldav] Re: draft-reschke-http-addmembe… Jamie Lokier
- Re: [Ietf-caldav] [Fwd: draft-reschke-http-addmem… Julian Reschke
- Re: [Ietf-caldav] [Fwd: draft-reschke-http-addmem… Roy T. Fielding
- Re: [Ietf-caldav] [Fwd: draft-reschke-http-addmem… Julian Reschke
- [Ietf-caldav] Re: draft-reschke-http-addmember-00 Julian Reschke
- Re: [Ietf-caldav] [Fwd: draft-reschke-http-addmem… Julian Reschke
- [Ietf-caldav] Re: draft-reschke-http-addmember-00 Jamie Lokier
- [Ietf-caldav] Re: draft-reschke-http-addmember-00 Julian Reschke
- [Ietf-caldav] Re: draft-reschke-http-addmember-00 Jeffrey Mogul
- [Ietf-caldav] Re: draft-reschke-http-addmember-00 Jamie Lokier
- Re: [Ietf-caldav] Re: draft-reschke-http-addmembe… Julian Reschke
- [Ietf-caldav] Re: draft-reschke-http-addmember-00 Jeffrey Mogul
- Re: [Ietf-caldav] Re: draft-reschke-http-addmembe… Scott Lawrence
- [Ietf-caldav] Re: draft-reschke-http-addmember-00 Julian Reschke
- Re: [Ietf-caldav] [Fwd: draft-reschke-http-addmem… Julian Reschke
- Re: [Ietf-caldav] [Fwd: draft-reschke-http-addmem… Scott Carr
- Re: [Ietf-caldav] [Fwd: draft-reschke-http-addmem… Julian Reschke
- Re: [Ietf-caldav] Re: draft-reschke-http-addmembe… Julian Reschke
- [Ietf-caldav] Re: draft-reschke-http-addmember-00 Jamie Lokier
- Re: [Ietf-caldav] [Fwd: draft-reschke-http-addmem… Mark Baker
- Re: [Ietf-caldav] [Fwd: draft-reschke-http-addmem… Roy T. Fielding
- Re: [Ietf-caldav] [Fwd: draft-reschke-http-addmem… Bernard Desruisseaux
- [Ietf-caldav] Re: draft-reschke-http-addmember-00 Geoffrey M Clemm
- Re: [Ietf-caldav] [Fwd: draft-reschke-http-addmem… Mark Baker
- Re: [Ietf-caldav] [Fwd: draft-reschke-http-addmem… Scott Lawrence
- Re: [Ietf-caldav] [Fwd: draft-reschke-http-addmem… Roy T. Fielding
- Re: [Ietf-caldav] [Fwd: draft-reschke-http-addmem… Julian Reschke
- [Ietf-caldav] Re: draft-reschke-http-addmember-00 Jamie Lokier
- Re: [Ietf-caldav] [Fwd: draft-reschke-http-addmem… Jamie Lokier
- Re: [Ietf-caldav] [Fwd: draft-reschke-http-addmem… Scott Lawrence
- Re: [Ietf-caldav] [Fwd: draft-reschke-http-addmem… Mark Baker
- [Ietf-caldav] Re: draft-reschke-http-addmember-00 Geoffrey M Clemm
- Re: [Ietf-caldav] [Fwd: draft-reschke-http-addmem… Roy T. Fielding
- Re: [Ietf-caldav] [Fwd: draft-reschke-http-addmem… Julian Reschke
- Re: [Ietf-caldav] [Fwd: draft-reschke-http-addmem… Jamie Lokier
- Re: [Ietf-caldav] [Fwd: draft-reschke-http-addmem… Julian Reschke
- Re: [Ietf-caldav] [Fwd: draft-reschke-http-addmem… Jamie Lokier
- Re: [Ietf-caldav] [Fwd: draft-reschke-http-addmem… Jamie Lokier
- Re: [Ietf-caldav] [Fwd: draft-reschke-http-addmem… Julian Reschke
- Re: [Ietf-caldav] [Fwd: draft-reschke-http-addmem… Scott Lawrence
- Re: [Ietf-caldav] [Fwd: draft-reschke-http-addmem… Jamie Lokier
- Re: [Ietf-caldav] [Fwd: draft-reschke-http-addmem… Julian Reschke
- Re: [Ietf-caldav] [Fwd: draft-reschke-http-addmem… Julian Reschke
- Re: [Ietf-caldav] [Fwd: draft-reschke-http-addmem… Julian Reschke
- Re: [Ietf-caldav] [Fwd: draft-reschke-http-addmem… Jamie Lokier
- Re: [Ietf-caldav] [Fwd: draft-reschke-http-addmem… Jamie Lokier
- Re: [Ietf-caldav] [Fwd: draft-reschke-http-addmem… Julian Reschke
- Re: [Ietf-caldav] [Fwd: draft-reschke-http-addmem… Scott Lawrence
- Re: [Ietf-caldav] [Fwd: draft-reschke-http-addmem… Jan Algermissen
- Re: [Ietf-caldav] [Fwd: draft-reschke-http-addmem… Jamie Lokier
- Re: [Ietf-caldav] [Fwd: draft-reschke-http-addmem… Lisa Dusseault
- Re: [Ietf-caldav] [Fwd: draft-reschke-http-addmem… Julian Reschke
- Re: [Ietf-caldav] [Fwd: draft-reschke-http-addmem… Julian Reschke
- Re: [Ietf-caldav] [Fwd: draft-reschke-http-addmem… Cyrus Daboo
- Re: [Ietf-caldav] [Fwd: draft-reschke-http-addmem… Cyrus Daboo
- Re: [Ietf-caldav] [Fwd: draft-reschke-http-addmem… Jamie Lokier
- Re: [Ietf-caldav] [Fwd: draft-reschke-http-addmem… Stefan Eissing
- Re: [Ietf-caldav] [Fwd: draft-reschke-http-addmem… Roy T. Fielding
- Re: [Ietf-caldav] [Fwd: draft-reschke-http-addmem… Cyrus Daboo
- Re: [Ietf-caldav] [Fwd: draft-reschke-http-addmem… Joe Gregorio
- Re: [Ietf-caldav] [Fwd: draft-reschke-http-addmem… Julian Reschke
- Re: [Ietf-caldav] [Fwd: draft-reschke-http-addmem… Jamie Lokier
- Re: [Ietf-caldav] [Fwd: draft-reschke-http-addmem… Julian Reschke
- Re: [Ietf-caldav] [Fwd: draft-reschke-http-addmem… Roy T. Fielding
- Re: [Ietf-caldav] [Fwd: draft-reschke-http-addmem… Jamie Lokier
- Re: [Ietf-caldav] [Fwd: draft-reschke-http-addmem… Mark Baker
- Re: [Ietf-caldav] [Fwd: draft-reschke-http-addmem… Helge Hess
- Re: [Ietf-caldav] [Fwd: draft-reschke-http-addmem… Jamie Lokier
- Re: [Ietf-caldav] [Fwd: draft-reschke-http-addmem… Julian Reschke
- Re: [Ietf-caldav] [Fwd: draft-reschke-http-addmem… Cyrus Daboo
- Re: [Ietf-caldav] [Fwd: draft-reschke-http-addmem… Julian Reschke
- Re: [Ietf-caldav] [Fwd: draft-reschke-http-addmem… Cyrus Daboo
- Re: [Ietf-caldav] [Fwd: draft-reschke-http-addmem… Julian Reschke
- Re: [Ietf-caldav] [Fwd: draft-reschke-http-addmem… Cyrus Daboo
- [Ietf-caldav] [Fwd: draft-reschke-http-addmember-… Julian Reschke