Re: [CFRG] What I want from the "KEM hybrids"
"Salz, Rich" <rsalz@akamai.com> Wed, 21 February 2024 14:43 UTC
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From: "Salz, Rich" <rsalz@akamai.com>
To: Filippo Valsorda <filippo@ml.filippo.io>, "cfrg@irtf.org" <cfrg@irtf.org>
Thread-Topic: [CFRG] What I want from the "KEM hybrids"
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Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2024 14:43:38 +0000
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Subject: Re: [CFRG] What I want from the "KEM hybrids"
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Again, what myself and—I believe—other implementers are saying in this very thread is that we don't want alternatives. They bring complexity, encourage further proliferation, divide our very finite maintenance resources, and cause Hello Retry Request round-trips. I tend to agree with this. I don’t think that swapping out Kyber in a generic combiner would be much less work than building a new “custom”/”unified” algorithm. It also allows the non-generic combiners to leverage properties of the underlying algorithms that make them more efficient and easier to understand and analyze. A generic combiner can’t make any such simplifying assumptions, which means that they are likely to be more complicated and therefore error-prone, and more likely to be a pointy-side-up rake left for future implementors. As examples, we don’t have to have any of the discussions about what to hash. And we don’t have to worry about someone replacing X25519 in RSA-PKCS1.5 because it’s what their smartcards have, or because now they can finally get “observability” that TLS1.3 took away with the removal of static RSA key exchange.
- [CFRG] (no subject) D. J. Bernstein
- Re: [CFRG] [EXTERNAL] What I want from the "KEM h… Santosh Chokhani
- Re: [CFRG] (no subject) Andy Lutomirski
- Re: [CFRG] [EXTERNAL] Re: (no subject) Mike Ounsworth
- [CFRG] What I want from the "KEM hybrids" Watson Ladd
- Re: [CFRG] What I want from the "KEM hybrids" Filippo Valsorda
- Re: [CFRG] [EXTERNAL] What I want from the "KEM h… Sophie Schmieg
- Re: [CFRG] [EXT] What I want from the "KEM hybrid… Santosh Chokhani
- Re: [CFRG] [EXT] What I want from the "KEM hybrid… Mike Ounsworth
- Re: [CFRG] [EXT] What I want from the "KEM hybrid… Hubert Kario
- Re: [CFRG] [EXTERNAL] What I want from the "KEM h… Mike Ounsworth
- Re: [CFRG] [EXTERNAL] What I want from the "KEM h… Neil Madden
- Re: [CFRG] [EXTERNAL] Re: [EXT] What I want from … Mike Ounsworth
- Re: [CFRG] [EXT] What I want from the "KEM hybrid… Blumenthal, Uri - 0553 - MITLL
- Re: [CFRG] [EXTERNAL] What I want from the "KEM h… Watson Ladd
- Re: [CFRG] [EXT] What I want from the "KEM hybrid… Blumenthal, Uri - 0553 - MITLL
- Re: [CFRG] [EXT] What I want from the "KEM hybrid… Sophie Schmieg
- Re: [CFRG] [EXTERNAL] Re: (no subject) Mike Ounsworth
- Re: [CFRG] What I want from the "KEM hybrids" D. J. Bernstein
- Re: [CFRG] [EXTERNAL] What I want from the "KEM h… Watson Ladd
- Re: [CFRG] What I want from the "KEM hybrids" Filippo Valsorda
- Re: [CFRG] What I want from the "KEM hybrids" Salz, Rich
- Re: [CFRG] [EXTERNAL] What I want from the "KEM h… Mike Ounsworth
- Re: [CFRG] [EXTERNAL] What I want from the "KEM h… Salz, Rich
- Re: [CFRG] What I want from the "KEM hybrids" Mike Ounsworth
- Re: [CFRG] [EXTERNAL] Re: (no subject) Watson Ladd
- Re: [CFRG] [EXTERNAL] What I want from the "KEM h… Peter Gutmann
- Re: [CFRG] [EXTERNAL] What I want from the "KEM h… Watson Ladd
- Re: [CFRG] (no subject) Filippo Valsorda
- Re: [CFRG] [EXTERNAL] Re: (no subject) Natanael
- Re: [CFRG] (no subject) Watson Ladd
- Re: [CFRG] [EXTERNAL] What I want from the "KEM h… Hubert Kario
- Re: [CFRG] [EXTERNAL] Re: (no subject) Watson Ladd
- Re: [CFRG] [EXT] What I want from the "KEM hybrid… D. J. Bernstein
- Re: [CFRG] [EXTERNAL] What I want from the "KEM h… Hubert Kario
- Re: [CFRG] [EXTERNAL] Re: (no subject) Sophie Schmieg
- Re: [CFRG] [EXTERNAL] Re: (no subject) Watson Ladd
- Re: [CFRG] [EXT] Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: (no subject) Blumenthal, Uri - 0553 - MITLL
- Re: [CFRG] [EXTERNAL] What I want from the "KEM h… Carl Wallace
- Re: [CFRG] [EXTERNAL] What I want from the "KEM h… Mike Ounsworth
- Re: [CFRG] [EXTERNAL] What I want from the "KEM h… Sophie Schmieg
- Re: [CFRG] [EXTERNAL] Re: (no subject) Mike Ounsworth
- Re: [CFRG] Millions of dollars of hashing Ilari Liusvaara
- [CFRG] Combiners: is the tail capable of wagging … D. J. Bernstein
- Re: [CFRG] [EXTERNAL] What I want from the "KEM h… Mike Ounsworth
- Re: [CFRG] [EXT] What I want from the "KEM hybrid… Blumenthal, Uri - 0553 - MITLL
- [CFRG] Millions of dollars of hashing D. J. Bernstein
- Re: [CFRG] [EXTERNAL] Re: (no subject) Mike Ounsworth
- Re: [CFRG] [EXTERNAL] What I want from the "KEM h… Mike Ounsworth
- Re: [CFRG] Millions of dollars of hashing Bas Westerbaan
- Re: [CFRG] Millions of dollars of hashing Sophie Schmieg
- Re: [CFRG] [EXTERNAL] What I want from the "KEM h… Hubert Kario
- [CFRG] Why we use ECDH instead of traditional DH D. J. Bernstein
- Re: [CFRG] Proposed CFRG hybrid KEM scope (was: "… Mike Ounsworth
- Re: [CFRG] [EXTERNAL] What I want from the "KEM h… Hubert Kario
- Re: [CFRG] Proposed CFRG hybrid KEM scope (was: "… Mike Ounsworth
- Re: [CFRG] Tens of millions of dollars of CPU cyc… D. J. Bernstein
- Re: [CFRG] Proposed CFRG hybrid KEM scope (was: "… Scott Fluhrer (sfluhrer)
- Re: [CFRG] Millions of dollars of hashing D. J. Bernstein
- Re: [CFRG] Millions of dollars of hashing Adam Langley
- Re: [CFRG] Millions of dollars of hashing D. J. Bernstein
- Re: [CFRG] Proposed CFRG hybrid KEM scope (was: "… Ilari Liusvaara
- Re: [CFRG] Proposed CFRG hybrid KEM scope Simon Josefsson
- Re: [CFRG] stick to kems maybe (Re: [EXTERNAL] Re… Mike Ounsworth
- Re: [CFRG] Proposed CFRG hybrid KEM scope Loganaden Velvindron
- Re: [CFRG] [EXT] What I want from the "KEM hybrid… Blumenthal, Uri - 0553 - MITLL
- Re: [CFRG] Proposed CFRG hybrid KEM scope (was: "… Ilari Liusvaara
- Re: [CFRG] Proposed CFRG hybrid KEM scope (was: "… Bas Westerbaan
- Re: [CFRG] Proposed CFRG hybrid KEM scope (was: "… Ilari Liusvaara
- Re: [CFRG] Millions of dollars of hashing D. J. Bernstein
- Re: [CFRG] Millions of dollars of hashing Peter Gutmann
- Re: [CFRG] Millions of dollars of hashing Adam Langley
- Re: [CFRG] [EXTERNAL] Re: (no subject) Mike Ounsworth
- Re: [CFRG] [EXTERNAL] What I want from the "KEM h… Hubert Kario
- Re: [CFRG] Millions of dollars of hashing John Mattsson
- Re: [CFRG] What I want from the "KEM hybrids" Jeffrey Burdges
- Re: [CFRG] Millions of dollars of hashing Sophie Schmieg
- Re: [CFRG] Why we use ECDH instead of traditional… D. J. Bernstein
- Re: [CFRG] [EXTERNAL] What I want from the "KEM h… Hubert Kario
- Re: [CFRG] Millions of dollars of hashing Neil Madden
- Re: [CFRG] Millions of dollars of hashing Sophie Schmieg
- Re: [CFRG] [EXT] What I want from the "KEM hybrid… Blumenthal, Uri - 0553 - MITLL
- Re: [CFRG] Millions of dollars of hashing Eric Rescorla
- Re: [CFRG] Millions of dollars of hashing D. J. Bernstein
- Re: [CFRG] [EXTERNAL] What I want from the "KEM h… Mike Ounsworth
- Re: [CFRG] Proposed CFRG hybrid KEM scope (was: "… Bas Westerbaan
- Re: [CFRG] Millions of dollars of hashing Peter Gutmann
- [CFRG] Tens of millions of dollars of CPU cycles D. J. Bernstein
- Re: [CFRG] [EXTERNAL] What I want from the "KEM h… Hubert Kario
- Re: [CFRG] Millions of dollars of hashing D. J. Bernstein
- [CFRG] stick to kems maybe (Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: (n… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [CFRG] [EXTERNAL] What I want from the "KEM h… Neil Madden
- Re: [CFRG] [EXTERNAL] What I want from the "KEM h… Neil Madden
- Re: [CFRG] [EXTERNAL] What I want from the "KEM h… Hubert Kario
- Re: [CFRG] [EXT] Re: [EXTERNAL] What I want from … Blumenthal, Uri - 0553 - MITLL
- Re: [CFRG] [EXTERNAL] What I want from the "KEM h… Salz, Rich
- Re: [CFRG] [EXTERNAL] What I want from the "KEM h… Mike Ounsworth
- Re: [CFRG] [EXT] What I want from the "KEM hybrid… Sophie Schmieg
- Re: [CFRG] Tens of millions of dollars of CPU cyc… Peter Gutmann
- Re: [CFRG] Tens of millions of dollars of CPU cyc… Peter Gutmann
- Re: [CFRG] Tens of millions of dollars of CPU cyc… D. J. Bernstein
- Re: [CFRG] [EXTERNAL] Re: (no subject) Mike Ounsworth
- Re: [CFRG] [EXT] What I want from the "KEM hybrid… Santosh Chokhani
- Re: [CFRG] Tens of millions of dollars of CPU cyc… Peter Gutmann
- Re: [CFRG] Tens of millions of dollars of CPU cyc… Salz, Rich
- Re: [CFRG] Tens of millions of dollars of CPU cyc… Chris Barber
- Re: [CFRG] Tens of millions of dollars of CPU cyc… D. J. Bernstein
- Re: [CFRG] [EXTERNAL] Re: (no subject) Sophie Schmieg
- Re: [CFRG] Why we use ECDH instead of traditional… Ilari Liusvaara