Re: [CFRG] Proposed CFRG hybrid KEM scope (was: "Millions of dollars of hashing")
Ilari Liusvaara <ilariliusvaara@welho.com> Fri, 23 February 2024 07:51 UTC
Return-Path: <ilariliusvaara@welho.com>
X-Original-To: cfrg@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: cfrg@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F41AAC14F602 for <cfrg@ietfa.amsl.com>; Thu, 22 Feb 2024 23:51:52 -0800 (PST)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.909
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.909 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_ZEN_BLOCKED_OPENDNS=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([50.223.129.194]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MLVeiRD5RShO for <cfrg@ietfa.amsl.com>; Thu, 22 Feb 2024 23:51:47 -0800 (PST)
Received: from welho-filter3.welho.com (welho-filter3b.welho.com [83.102.41.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 71977C14F5FC for <cfrg@irtf.org>; Thu, 22 Feb 2024 23:51:46 -0800 (PST)
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by welho-filter3.welho.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE7E91B2B7 for <cfrg@irtf.org>; Fri, 23 Feb 2024 09:51:43 +0200 (EET)
X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at pp.htv.fi
Received: from welho-smtp1.welho.com ([IPv6:::ffff:83.102.41.84]) by localhost (welho-filter3.welho.com [::ffff:83.102.41.25]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mA1tOvBAElTq for <cfrg@irtf.org>; Fri, 23 Feb 2024 09:51:43 +0200 (EET)
Received: from LK-Perkele-VII2 (78-27-96-203.bb.dnainternet.fi [78.27.96.203]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by welho-smtp1.welho.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 8B7067A for <cfrg@irtf.org>; Fri, 23 Feb 2024 09:51:42 +0200 (EET)
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2024 09:51:42 +0200
From: Ilari Liusvaara <ilariliusvaara@welho.com>
To: "cfrg@irtf.org" <cfrg@irtf.org>
Message-ID: <ZdhOjgNWPoBTfqml@LK-Perkele-VII2.locald>
References: <CAEEbLAbRHjJGm-3CQipzW=n40B-b23D6ZxmHN-f3PtVikj5=Cw@mail.gmail.com> <20240222152700.929016.qmail@cr.yp.to> <CAMjbhoUpK7F-H3vqXZbHYpr0S6a_fZrUeoL2SDB6QLp9URL4GA@mail.gmail.com> <CAEEbLAbcJfLwXusFuPN+yaAbSA+ANd_vjhVzSOF5EP4gh2y+3A@mail.gmail.com> <CH0PR11MB5739F5E7010B2A99CF2BD9B09F562@CH0PR11MB5739.namprd11.prod.outlook.com> <CH0PR11MB57393F6B973FCD8A95E3964E9F562@CH0PR11MB5739.namprd11.prod.outlook.com> <CH0PR11MB5444982518563A35D2AF3A9AC1562@CH0PR11MB5444.namprd11.prod.outlook.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Content-Disposition: inline
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
In-Reply-To: <CH0PR11MB5444982518563A35D2AF3A9AC1562@CH0PR11MB5444.namprd11.prod.outlook.com>
Sender: ilariliusvaara@welho.com
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/cfrg/2NMSXNGEM1qLQ7wDnWW4IavrY9c>
Subject: Re: [CFRG] Proposed CFRG hybrid KEM scope (was: "Millions of dollars of hashing")
X-BeenThere: cfrg@irtf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.39
Precedence: list
List-Id: Crypto Forum Research Group <cfrg.irtf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://mailman.irtf.org/mailman/options/cfrg>, <mailto:cfrg-request@irtf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/cfrg/>
List-Post: <mailto:cfrg@irtf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:cfrg-request@irtf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://mailman.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/cfrg>, <mailto:cfrg-request@irtf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2024 07:51:53 -0000
On Thu, Feb 22, 2024 at 11:01:05PM +0000, Scott Fluhrer (sfluhrer) wrote: > Here is a thought that occurred to me. > > Suppose we had an existing protocol that used a key exchange (either > DH or KEM) to generate keys. > > In particular, this protocol performs a DH or KEM operation to > generate a shared secret S, computed A := I(S) (where I is the > identity function – why I call that out will be obvious) and then took > A and used that somehow in its key derivation protocol. We will also > assume that this unmodified protocol meets some unspecified security > goals. > > Now, we take this protocol and make it hybrid; we perform two DH/KEM > operations which generate two shared secrets S, T, and then we compute > A := Hash(S, T) (where Hash is a secure hash function), and then took > A, and used it in the exact same way in its key derivation protocol. > > We will further assume that one of the DH/KEM operations turns out to > be weak (and to the extent that the attacker can freely control its > output) > > The obvious question is: does this updated protocol still meet the > unspecified security requirements? That is, can replacing the > identity function I with a hash of the secret along with attacker > controlled material add a vulnerability to the protocol that wasn’t > already there? It can introduce weaknesses that were not already there. The standard security notion used for this is IND-CCA2: indistinguishability under adaptive chosen ciphertext attack. If S and T are outputs of two KEMs that meet IND-CCA2, then Hash(S, T) still might not meet IND-CCA2. Turns out there is exactly one way this can happen: If attacker can come up with another ciphertext for either KEM that still decapsulates to the same shared secret, then IND-CCA2 security breaks down. The way to fix this is to add ciphertext for DH and KEMs where such thing is possible. Fortunately, turns out that for ML-KEM (FIPS-to-be 203), finding such ciphertext is equivalent difficulty to 2nd preimage attack against SHA3-256. Any practical attack complexity would totally destroy SHA-3. So if ML-KEM is paired with some DH, then only the DH part (which is very small) of the ciphertext needs to be hashed. If this does not cause more hash blocks to be needed, this is very cheap thing to do. Another question is if this failure mode can introduce practical vulnerability. The answer in most cases seems to be no: Finding another ciphertext that decapsulates to the same shared secret does not seem to be anything helpful for an attacker. And in fact, many protocols let the attacker to trivially do just that. This is in contrast to single KEMs that fail IND-CCA2. Those failure modes are usually something very nasty. E.g., being completely broken or processing malformed ciphertexts leaking the private key. However, crypto libraries are important consideration. One wants as few combinations as possible, and more importantly, there not to be variants. Thus one wants to make the construct to be IND-CCA2 secure. Frequently this is extremely cheap to do. Protocols that do very exotic things beyond IND-CCA2 require separate analyis. The property might turn out to be something that is ruined by one component not having it. Or it might not propagate through combiner even if all components have it. Furthermore, it is much more difficult to find information about properties of various KEMs beyond IND-CCA2. And such properties can turn out to be flawed. Recently that happened with signature security property called NR, turns out there is no way to meet it. -Ilari
- [CFRG] (no subject) D. J. Bernstein
- Re: [CFRG] [EXTERNAL] What I want from the "KEM h… Santosh Chokhani
- Re: [CFRG] (no subject) Andy Lutomirski
- Re: [CFRG] [EXTERNAL] Re: (no subject) Mike Ounsworth
- [CFRG] What I want from the "KEM hybrids" Watson Ladd
- Re: [CFRG] What I want from the "KEM hybrids" Filippo Valsorda
- Re: [CFRG] [EXTERNAL] What I want from the "KEM h… Sophie Schmieg
- Re: [CFRG] [EXT] What I want from the "KEM hybrid… Santosh Chokhani
- Re: [CFRG] [EXT] What I want from the "KEM hybrid… Mike Ounsworth
- Re: [CFRG] [EXT] What I want from the "KEM hybrid… Hubert Kario
- Re: [CFRG] [EXTERNAL] What I want from the "KEM h… Mike Ounsworth
- Re: [CFRG] [EXTERNAL] What I want from the "KEM h… Neil Madden
- Re: [CFRG] [EXTERNAL] Re: [EXT] What I want from … Mike Ounsworth
- Re: [CFRG] [EXT] What I want from the "KEM hybrid… Blumenthal, Uri - 0553 - MITLL
- Re: [CFRG] [EXTERNAL] What I want from the "KEM h… Watson Ladd
- Re: [CFRG] [EXT] What I want from the "KEM hybrid… Blumenthal, Uri - 0553 - MITLL
- Re: [CFRG] [EXT] What I want from the "KEM hybrid… Sophie Schmieg
- Re: [CFRG] [EXTERNAL] Re: (no subject) Mike Ounsworth
- Re: [CFRG] What I want from the "KEM hybrids" D. J. Bernstein
- Re: [CFRG] [EXTERNAL] What I want from the "KEM h… Watson Ladd
- Re: [CFRG] What I want from the "KEM hybrids" Filippo Valsorda
- Re: [CFRG] What I want from the "KEM hybrids" Salz, Rich
- Re: [CFRG] [EXTERNAL] What I want from the "KEM h… Mike Ounsworth
- Re: [CFRG] [EXTERNAL] What I want from the "KEM h… Salz, Rich
- Re: [CFRG] What I want from the "KEM hybrids" Mike Ounsworth
- Re: [CFRG] [EXTERNAL] Re: (no subject) Watson Ladd
- Re: [CFRG] [EXTERNAL] What I want from the "KEM h… Peter Gutmann
- Re: [CFRG] [EXTERNAL] What I want from the "KEM h… Watson Ladd
- Re: [CFRG] (no subject) Filippo Valsorda
- Re: [CFRG] [EXTERNAL] Re: (no subject) Natanael
- Re: [CFRG] (no subject) Watson Ladd
- Re: [CFRG] [EXTERNAL] What I want from the "KEM h… Hubert Kario
- Re: [CFRG] [EXTERNAL] Re: (no subject) Watson Ladd
- Re: [CFRG] [EXT] What I want from the "KEM hybrid… D. J. Bernstein
- Re: [CFRG] [EXTERNAL] What I want from the "KEM h… Hubert Kario
- Re: [CFRG] [EXTERNAL] Re: (no subject) Sophie Schmieg
- Re: [CFRG] [EXTERNAL] Re: (no subject) Watson Ladd
- Re: [CFRG] [EXT] Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: (no subject) Blumenthal, Uri - 0553 - MITLL
- Re: [CFRG] [EXTERNAL] What I want from the "KEM h… Carl Wallace
- Re: [CFRG] [EXTERNAL] What I want from the "KEM h… Mike Ounsworth
- Re: [CFRG] [EXTERNAL] What I want from the "KEM h… Sophie Schmieg
- Re: [CFRG] [EXTERNAL] Re: (no subject) Mike Ounsworth
- Re: [CFRG] Millions of dollars of hashing Ilari Liusvaara
- [CFRG] Combiners: is the tail capable of wagging … D. J. Bernstein
- Re: [CFRG] [EXTERNAL] What I want from the "KEM h… Mike Ounsworth
- Re: [CFRG] [EXT] What I want from the "KEM hybrid… Blumenthal, Uri - 0553 - MITLL
- [CFRG] Millions of dollars of hashing D. J. Bernstein
- Re: [CFRG] [EXTERNAL] Re: (no subject) Mike Ounsworth
- Re: [CFRG] [EXTERNAL] What I want from the "KEM h… Mike Ounsworth
- Re: [CFRG] Millions of dollars of hashing Bas Westerbaan
- Re: [CFRG] Millions of dollars of hashing Sophie Schmieg
- Re: [CFRG] [EXTERNAL] What I want from the "KEM h… Hubert Kario
- [CFRG] Why we use ECDH instead of traditional DH D. J. Bernstein
- Re: [CFRG] Proposed CFRG hybrid KEM scope (was: "… Mike Ounsworth
- Re: [CFRG] [EXTERNAL] What I want from the "KEM h… Hubert Kario
- Re: [CFRG] Proposed CFRG hybrid KEM scope (was: "… Mike Ounsworth
- Re: [CFRG] Tens of millions of dollars of CPU cyc… D. J. Bernstein
- Re: [CFRG] Proposed CFRG hybrid KEM scope (was: "… Scott Fluhrer (sfluhrer)
- Re: [CFRG] Millions of dollars of hashing D. J. Bernstein
- Re: [CFRG] Millions of dollars of hashing Adam Langley
- Re: [CFRG] Millions of dollars of hashing D. J. Bernstein
- Re: [CFRG] Proposed CFRG hybrid KEM scope (was: "… Ilari Liusvaara
- Re: [CFRG] Proposed CFRG hybrid KEM scope Simon Josefsson
- Re: [CFRG] stick to kems maybe (Re: [EXTERNAL] Re… Mike Ounsworth
- Re: [CFRG] Proposed CFRG hybrid KEM scope Loganaden Velvindron
- Re: [CFRG] [EXT] What I want from the "KEM hybrid… Blumenthal, Uri - 0553 - MITLL
- Re: [CFRG] Proposed CFRG hybrid KEM scope (was: "… Ilari Liusvaara
- Re: [CFRG] Proposed CFRG hybrid KEM scope (was: "… Bas Westerbaan
- Re: [CFRG] Proposed CFRG hybrid KEM scope (was: "… Ilari Liusvaara
- Re: [CFRG] Millions of dollars of hashing D. J. Bernstein
- Re: [CFRG] Millions of dollars of hashing Peter Gutmann
- Re: [CFRG] Millions of dollars of hashing Adam Langley
- Re: [CFRG] [EXTERNAL] Re: (no subject) Mike Ounsworth
- Re: [CFRG] [EXTERNAL] What I want from the "KEM h… Hubert Kario
- Re: [CFRG] Millions of dollars of hashing John Mattsson
- Re: [CFRG] What I want from the "KEM hybrids" Jeffrey Burdges
- Re: [CFRG] Millions of dollars of hashing Sophie Schmieg
- Re: [CFRG] Why we use ECDH instead of traditional… D. J. Bernstein
- Re: [CFRG] [EXTERNAL] What I want from the "KEM h… Hubert Kario
- Re: [CFRG] Millions of dollars of hashing Neil Madden
- Re: [CFRG] Millions of dollars of hashing Sophie Schmieg
- Re: [CFRG] [EXT] What I want from the "KEM hybrid… Blumenthal, Uri - 0553 - MITLL
- Re: [CFRG] Millions of dollars of hashing Eric Rescorla
- Re: [CFRG] Millions of dollars of hashing D. J. Bernstein
- Re: [CFRG] [EXTERNAL] What I want from the "KEM h… Mike Ounsworth
- Re: [CFRG] Proposed CFRG hybrid KEM scope (was: "… Bas Westerbaan
- Re: [CFRG] Millions of dollars of hashing Peter Gutmann
- [CFRG] Tens of millions of dollars of CPU cycles D. J. Bernstein
- Re: [CFRG] [EXTERNAL] What I want from the "KEM h… Hubert Kario
- Re: [CFRG] Millions of dollars of hashing D. J. Bernstein
- [CFRG] stick to kems maybe (Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: (n… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [CFRG] [EXTERNAL] What I want from the "KEM h… Neil Madden
- Re: [CFRG] [EXTERNAL] What I want from the "KEM h… Neil Madden
- Re: [CFRG] [EXTERNAL] What I want from the "KEM h… Hubert Kario
- Re: [CFRG] [EXT] Re: [EXTERNAL] What I want from … Blumenthal, Uri - 0553 - MITLL
- Re: [CFRG] [EXTERNAL] What I want from the "KEM h… Salz, Rich
- Re: [CFRG] [EXTERNAL] What I want from the "KEM h… Mike Ounsworth
- Re: [CFRG] [EXT] What I want from the "KEM hybrid… Sophie Schmieg
- Re: [CFRG] Tens of millions of dollars of CPU cyc… Peter Gutmann
- Re: [CFRG] Tens of millions of dollars of CPU cyc… Peter Gutmann
- Re: [CFRG] Tens of millions of dollars of CPU cyc… D. J. Bernstein
- Re: [CFRG] [EXTERNAL] Re: (no subject) Mike Ounsworth
- Re: [CFRG] [EXT] What I want from the "KEM hybrid… Santosh Chokhani
- Re: [CFRG] Tens of millions of dollars of CPU cyc… Peter Gutmann
- Re: [CFRG] Tens of millions of dollars of CPU cyc… Salz, Rich
- Re: [CFRG] Tens of millions of dollars of CPU cyc… Chris Barber
- Re: [CFRG] Tens of millions of dollars of CPU cyc… D. J. Bernstein
- Re: [CFRG] [EXTERNAL] Re: (no subject) Sophie Schmieg
- Re: [CFRG] Why we use ECDH instead of traditional… Ilari Liusvaara