[DNSOP] Re: [Ext] Re: Collision Free Key Tags for DNSSEC draft

Petr Špaček <pspacek@isc.org> Wed, 23 July 2025 12:59 UTC

Return-Path: <pspacek@isc.org>
X-Original-To: dnsop@mail2.ietf.org
Delivered-To: dnsop@mail2.ietf.org
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail2.ietf.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 61C51495D376 for <dnsop@mail2.ietf.org>; Wed, 23 Jul 2025 05:59:58 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at ietf.org
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -4.399
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.399 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_VALIDITY_RPBL_BLOCKED=0.001, RCVD_IN_VALIDITY_SAFE_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: mail2.ietf.org (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=isc.org header.b="M9WROAxk"; dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=isc.org header.b="HujaGFW9"
Received: from mail2.ietf.org ([166.84.6.31]) by localhost (mail2.ietf.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 07P9NEz8m3Ch for <dnsop@mail2.ietf.org>; Wed, 23 Jul 2025 05:59:57 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mx.pao1.isc.org (mx.pao1.isc.org [149.20.2.50]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature ECDSA (P-256) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by mail2.ietf.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A26DE495CA1B for <dnsop@ietf.org>; Wed, 23 Jul 2025 05:58:42 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from zimbra10.isc.org (zimbra10.isc.org [149.20.2.90]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange x25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx.pao1.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F14E44D1710 for <dnsop@ietf.org>; Wed, 23 Jul 2025 12:58:41 +0000 (UTC)
ARC-Filter: OpenARC Filter v1.0.0 mx.pao1.isc.org F14E44D1710
Authentication-Results: mx.pao1.isc.org; arc=none smtp.remote-ip=149.20.2.90
ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=isc.org; s=ostpay; t=1753275522; cv=none; b=Zj04bFvHVN+oi/Vkx0LHmeI5Ze90WR7L5lcAhmTjlI/+x3fPUlaoogg17ukOJhchxP4lhSLbQkGVeM+FdJIiD4GYypvEw5fqI/NJrbD24h2oIAXQl1+B9jhhN8uDTHY6sUPUAHu+MFG7ZS7u6C4MJr0bsFnGc92UJPfIZ2Mc/QQ=
ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=isc.org; s=ostpay; t=1753275522; c=relaxed/relaxed; bh=vLO02ZfSuWyoB4mVO3/XvQ7edMZgdN+gPy/bxu0eFcs=; h=DKIM-Signature:DKIM-Signature:Message-ID:Date:MIME-Version: Subject:To:From; b=J3CsnXH53u/TLsoclBUkv30P4lJreuLrs+7y+dt3pcqTzqPl6RN+ReFULBlXBP8k+fM4yOTr8IuH2iQv6g4OBhqQCjlVLPNeV4CI+HQDok9qGQtRxF1wRGaCcg3wlmqAYkOOOGcXOtVXgX37G5ct6AyE0jWFAg+D0jLd5odMsCs=
ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.pao1.isc.org
DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.10.3 mx.pao1.isc.org F14E44D1710
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=isc.org; s=ostpay; t=1753275522; bh=QyVeSraDlErKUHelkOk68QY5v5uhZVJm58RkojdTN8k=; h=Date:Subject:To:References:From:In-Reply-To; b=M9WROAxk88LPrLNW0MqF8VL4GjLZb2y3QMFuwN5gHkKQBJIusawF67TTbTURhhkrb /ZK8qLnMGXa4j/diJOcLok5uXrk00qSQxA8Z+H91/gJt/di6XlOhXaIhtFTw5GgJe5 YazjJmg0LkyKbYn6IQmxIgh9JEyz/67iaGvhj+Cs=
Received: from zimbra10.isc.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zimbra10.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id ED28E2E601C0 for <dnsop@ietf.org>; Wed, 23 Jul 2025 12:58:41 +0000 (UTC)
Received: from zimbra10.isc.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zimbra10.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E9AF22E601C2 for <dnsop@ietf.org>; Wed, 23 Jul 2025 12:58:41 +0000 (UTC)
DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.10.3 zimbra10.isc.org E9AF22E601C2
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=isc.org; s=05DFB016-56A2-11EB-AEC0-15368D323330; t=1753275521; bh=vLO02ZfSuWyoB4mVO3/XvQ7edMZgdN+gPy/bxu0eFcs=; h=Message-ID:Date:MIME-Version:To:From; b=HujaGFW9h0rcHjPWApHFO5EUO32Kaq10obB+rKdC1r3B2dvRWto0If/rLYoePhQ4G kWDJxdmSvv33g9j5ZkJ42rwQavPLZ8b9JZOQKT7LH7TLuUNHsLxAPUwCiTcbDYPZie r17iAeAxVW30yFjREDqHzPV4Jw7C2RQhnIWSEa3w=
Received: from [192.168.0.121] (94-143-239-125.chrudim.cz [94.143.239.125]) by zimbra10.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 9D1972E601C0 for <dnsop@ietf.org>; Wed, 23 Jul 2025 12:58:41 +0000 (UTC)
Message-ID: <a9f7b2b7-25ae-4331-b7f5-aefdb99d8381@isc.org>
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2025 14:58:39 +0200
MIME-Version: 1.0
User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird
To: dnsop@ietf.org
References: <d279f933-f00c-0392-80e2-0c6928b50af3@taugh.com> <C1251C46-3646-4885-A465-BFAF2BE23334@isc.org> <79638578-1dfc-d48c-9341-46cbde9e7feb@taugh.com> <CAHw9_iK+6xwATjbRs_9ZMNmbiX_SRxHpzbwG3SCN53BmPdqCMg@mail.gmail.com> <F5F9D9E2-90DD-40B1-824B-57C4380DDA67@icann.org> <m1ubcE5-0000NuC@stereo.hq.phicoh.net> <8c4b4f9c-8c8c-7a2d-f2da-9aff895e40f1@nohats.ca> <90464e4c-e5aa-4ac6-b4ff-a5fdac8c6c14@nic.cz> <20250717100850.D810CD3A7716@ary.local> <1be57a05-8719-424d-95ad-1bf557eff053@isc.org> <20250722134129.AEBFFD42229F@dhcp-81ff.meeting.ietf.org> <m1ueFeN-0000OSC@stereo.hq.phicoh.net> <fe34a4ac-895b-6f0b-0385-3a2a4b068e7c@taugh.com> <m1ueGNi-0000NWC@stereo.hq.phicoh.net> <4DEE20AD-88C0-45A9-947A-5869CCE50BCB@isc.org> <CAHPuVdUhjQVtErGjo7Xs7RJXqPT_dqGD7Hc92C-KxiUYUqKa0w@mail.gmail.com> <m1ueYfB-0000OsC@stereo.hq.phicoh.net>
Content-Language: en-US
From: Petr Špaček <pspacek@isc.org>
Autocrypt: addr=pspacek@isc.org; keydata= xsFNBF/OJ/4BEAC0jP/EShRZtcI9KmzVK4IoD/GEDtcaNEEQzPt05G8xtC0P4uteXUwW8jaB CdcKIKR4eUJw3wdXXScLNlyh0i+gm5mIvKPrBYNAMOGGnkbAmMQOt9Q+TyGeTSSGiAjfvd/N nYg7L/KjVbG0sp6pAWVORMpR0oChHflzKSjvJITCGdpwagxSffU2HeWrLN7ePES6gPbtZ8HY KHUqjWZQsXLkMFw4yj8ZXuGarLwdBMB7V/9YHVkatJPjTsP8ZE723rV18iLiMvBqh4XtReEP 0vGQgiHnLnKs+reDiFy0cSOG0lpUWVGI50znu/gBuZRtTAE0LfMa0oAYaq997Y4k+na6JvHK hhaZMy82cD4YUa/xNnUPMXJjkJOBV4ghz/58GiT32lj4rdccjQO4zlvtjltjp9MTOFbRNI+I FCf9bykANotR+2BzttYKuCcred+Q7+wSDp9FQDdpUOiGnzT8oQukOuqiEh3J8hinHPGhtovH V22D0cU6T/u9mzvYoULhExPvXZglCLEuM0dACtjVsoyDkFVnTTupaPVuORgoW7nyNl0wDrII ILBqUBwzCdhQpYnyARSjx0gWSG1AQBKkk5SHQBqi1RAYC38M59SkpH0IKj+SaZbUJnuqshXh UIbY1GMHbW/GDhz7pNQFFYm2S4OPUBcmh/0O0Osma151/HjF7wARAQABzR9QZXRyIMWgcGHE jWVrIDxwc3BhY2VrQGlzYy5vcmc+wsGXBBMBCABBAhsDBQsJCAcCBhUKCQgLAgQWAgMBAh4B AheAAhkBFiEEEVO2++xeDVoSYmDzq9WHzfBlga4FAmd7vqsFCQmG4S0ACgkQq9WHzfBlga5H dA//SNIJAXyYxpoIrQwtTSOded93J+CIYHd2ArxCsS+ZXzeaSkHcqp2QfneLY2yyiQwjeivu MfqEBIASNZ94T+4OjhEHAFaAUJQtYMY7qmH69Q5h1PQMk/HZX4QNEDB6dihjz4wunB2mRcac GnRziAQUAnlHSSZDU2EtTddmRYTCaeX9rU8O5ja0+qPBJket7PjS0yT8DQJF+aKRsQz17ywT 3rNR7NBgeKrkBud4/zE7VRoxSRCPkWkgixEog+AotZt22psgQTv+kWx89+7cTiFZaLMmtV6v Ws8QTpDRDM3hCJBCI6qk61k8SLuQ+5VuVWBM/ozoN1ON2J9anxVTrxhNsFM3RLHV/Qh9p/0y T4our7JxB6dsos3HtlRR2npXS1PMrrXt7ZnnfYao+9zbOrZHC7NRY3feaLhieLx1pKmdDRHT CAbqaGnqX22hYYemtYFzSAv7stCdqdncAEkZJy4HByjQwFVGn8A6rp7H1xV2LmlkNAMEoWrT GJ+wH8A+VA3qbZF9Ab8Ht2GRj3mQQ4h8NnRYjKyqecCQOI5Xmn4S61nQ9y+wOBUSTlAQ6a5n LmMpCVe2/D4pWFxpUxc1z8Hq+uEN95sPgbihiSdgBR50DRdqW57ulFHA9LKJ0AEnBtQfvVth qAkvG8iBYl+UpoX1xW+dbX2g6nI5Rbx8u+EojKXOwU0EX84n/gEQANARNXihDNc1fLNFZK5s O14Yg2TouK9eo9gGh4yLSrmZ3pjtnuJSpTWmGD4g0EYzhwWA/T+CqjUnrhsvzLQ1ECYVqLpM VqK2OJ9PhLRbx1ITd4SKO/0xvXFkUqDTIF6a5mUCXH5DzTQGSmJwcjoRv3ye+Z1lDzOKJ+Qr gDHM2WLGlSZAVGcUeD1S2Mp/FroNOjGzrFXsUhOBNMo8PSC4ap0ZgYeVBq5aiMaQex0r+uM4 45S1z5N2nkNRYlUARkfKirqQxJ4mtj5XPC/jtdaUiMzvnwcMmLAwPlDNYiU0kO5IqJFBdzmJ yjzomVk1zK9AYS/woeIxETs+s6o7qXtMGGIoMWr6pirpHk4Wgp4TS02BSTSmNzParrFxLpEU dFKq3M0IsBCVGvfNgWL2pKKQVq34fwuBhJFQAigR9B3O9mfaeejrqt73Crp0ng0+Q74+Llzj EIJLOHYTMISTJyxYzhMCQlgPkKoj+TSVkRzBZoYFkUt4OXvlFj73wkeqeF8Z1YWoOCIjwXH9 0u2lPEq0cRHHyK+KSeH1zQJ4xgj0QDGPmkvi81D13sRaaNu3uSfXEDrdYYc+TSZd2bVh2VCr xrcfzQ1uz9fsdC9NPdNd7/mHvcAaNc5e9IhNh67L54aMBkzlJi18d0sWXOOHkyLSvbHnC/OP wv7qCf69PUJmtoeHABEBAAHCwXwEGAEIACYCGwwWIQQRU7b77F4NWhJiYPOr1YfN8GWBrgUC Z3u+zwUJCYbhUQAKCRCr1YfN8GWBrmljD/45mvtqiWzATkikxkJjTlxfhJBGUFXUoPXqvo8l 8zACTTnn6/K7v1TcFmtSHtLqQiTGwwq1vGQSjEG+UFzdXohex9MTv+7JHr+fcQfxFtxYeVGn k9fSkRkIdtpUzuCnBC27VYbq5S+nk4+ophmjm7rFVWd4tz+XTFZkuHTRImWxbaF9EZ/fuWmm XaICw+lzGan9BteM1ZSLIjzSPd7LoG55SuoVtAV91J5oLPo6KDOzgPEffalm2LJo7+ZaAeW6 diQUXxQpvAAROR/l1D1DIIQ0OJOqv0QRFyHt/zBbKgWmGaTQqF5aNab4ukVAt0LMsCkCjA11 HhcUnUwrixHR4V8G3UlHTQsWReiXfPerv/BewTsPHSzIfmufNlrBDfS/uIYdwquZfhOSsK9Z DUJFkaHudJC6tRVQ5LBVFqjgtZDllpAj1cOG7WmlTwHblj/r2+LMpOVHApByNkehEOA2c4Bn tcQ/8qSeorJCyd1/5A5+bUFIfIAJbRz4Ja21JgH107oCMX3hsGEzMnuwplYTf9NP4Dq0FQhK vkXzdnDhhXef8nUqF7l32hj9x1BCLFZ4FFe6iuKD7Q9p83Ca1HDdxauIrsrXTsEr1bjg2o/A JXI4A3sUunmiIf/tu+3riXUhA10P1IG11yEQ4y9ogE6knvOraRBwZ8gvFT7J2YLXJrF5mQ==
In-Reply-To: <m1ueYfB-0000OsC@stereo.hq.phicoh.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"; format="flowed"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Message-ID-Hash: 3WNXL5OJ2562RLM364ANAKIX6VU2WNVU
X-Message-ID-Hash: 3WNXL5OJ2562RLM364ANAKIX6VU2WNVU
X-MailFrom: pspacek@isc.org
X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; header-match-dnsop.ietf.org-0; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header
X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.9rc6
Precedence: list
Subject: [DNSOP] Re: [Ext] Re: Collision Free Key Tags for DNSSEC draft
List-Id: IETF DNSOP WG mailing list <dnsop.ietf.org>
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/dnsop/dUaG3zfB2_PkEijBGMTj9oyaWrA>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/dnsop>
List-Help: <mailto:dnsop-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Owner: <mailto:dnsop-owner@ietf.org>
List-Post: <mailto:dnsop@ietf.org>
List-Subscribe: <mailto:dnsop-join@ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:dnsop-leave@ietf.org>

On 23. 07. 25 14:33, Philip Homburg wrote:
>> For existing algorithms, we could punt. Or introduce new aliases/numbers
>> (which I know some folks don't like, though we've done that successfully
>> with algs 6 and 7 for NSEC3), or target a future flag date for enforcement
>> (and I know some folks hate flag days - Paul Wouters gave me a tshirt on
>> that subject this week! :)
> 
> In my opinion the thing to do now is publish a BCP that signers have to
> avoid collisions (and other reasons for bad signatures)
> 
> That will have about the same effect (and with a lot less hassle) as issuing
> new code points for existing algoritms.
> 
> We don't need a flag day. Validators can tolerate a few signature validation
> errors. The main thing is that with a BCP it is clearly an error on the
> side of the signer. Now it s something that is allowed by the protocol (and
> even expected to some extent from naive signers).

I agree with what Philip said. Setting expectation what collisions might 
not work is good enough. No need to jump through hoops with code points 
as it is just more code to write for no benefit.

-- 
Petr Špaček