Re: [Edm] Some thoughts on Sep 1 meeting, Issue 1
Spencer Dawkins at IETF <spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com> Wed, 09 September 2020 00:44 UTC
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From: Spencer Dawkins at IETF <spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 08 Sep 2020 19:44:12 -0500
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To: Vijay Gurbani <vijay.gurbani@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [Edm] Some thoughts on Sep 1 meeting, Issue 1
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Hi, Vijay, On Sun, Sep 6, 2020 at 6:52 PM Vijay Gurbani <vijay.gurbani@gmail.com> wrote: > Dear Tommy, Mirja, all: Thank you for organizing the virtual meeting on > Tue, Sep 1. > > As the instigator of the IETF WG Chairs list thread on archiving > implementations [1], I have some thoughts, but unfortunately due to a > conflict with meetings on my calendar, I had to leave early before the > second half of the meeting on last Tue when this issue was discussed. > Thank you for considering this thread of enough interest to put it on the > EDM agenda. > > My main question in the IETF Working Group Chair thread was simple: How do > the larger set of R&D folks who use the protocols we create find relevant > code and other accoutrements that are of interest to them without wading > into the IETF arcana? (As a definition, "IETF arcana" is the collective > knowledge we, on this list, have gathered from participating in the > organization for a sustained period. We know what a datatracker is, what > the difference between an individual submission versus a WG submission is, > we know where Wikis related to WG pages are, we know what WG deliverables > are, etc. This collected knowledge is not readily available to the many > people who want to use our protocols, and it is not clear to me that this > knowledge would be of use to them unless they want to participate in the > IETF to the extent that we do. They need to implement a standardized > protocol, for the most part, that is their primary concern.) > > What is the most visible output of the IETF? Perhaps unarguably, it is an > RFC. Even someone who has at best, a foggy idea of what the IETF is, knows > what a RFC does. When I talk to developers at companies and students at > universities, if they have heard of IETF at all, it is mostly through > knowing that some organization called IETF produces these things called > RFCs. That's it. Perhaps for them that is enough. And if you buy that > argument, then the corollary is that we should do everything that we can to > make sure that the implementers have all of the information they need to > implement the protocol from the RFC itself. > > The primary artifact of the protocol is the code that implements it. Not > all code is equal. Some, like a SIP server, a QUIC implementation, a HTTP > Server, a TLS implementation are complex and it is a foregone conclusion > that we can simply park some code in an archive that implements such > complex protocols. However, we also produce routing protocols, hashing > functions, best practices on how to handle dual IP stacks, ALTO entities > that use HTTP and JSON to converse with each other, and so on. Such code > is small, perhaps modular, stand-alone and often can easily be made > available in a repository much more readily than complex systems like QUIC, > SIP, TLS, or HTTP. > > For the more complex protocols and their implementations, wikis and GitHub > repositories that point the new implementer to the community of interest is > sufficient. For the less complex protocols that do not need a large > community of interest, a simple code archival mechanism appears to be > reasonable. To the extent that the archive should be IETF owned, it makes > sense to home the archive under ietf.org, as some of the IETF wikis are. > > So, the next question is how to let the implementer know of these > resources when they read a RFC or an I-D? RFC 7942 is an excellent start. > It suggests having an Implementation Section in an I-D, but requests the > removal of such a section from an RFC-to-be. This implementation section > can be used to document the datatrackers, wikis, and GitHub repositories > for the more complex code and a link to the archival area for the less > complex code. (I realize that IETF does not have authority over links like > GitHub that are not under the ietf.org administrative domain, but perhaps > for large projects, it is adequate that they stay in repositories like > GitHub.) Perhaps RFC 7942 can be updated so that the Implementation Section > is not removed when the I-D becomes an RFC, and perhaps verbiage can be > added to it during the update that essentially says "caveat emptor", but in > more words and with appropriate constraints. But the basic concern of > making an RFC self contained such that it has links to implementations is > adequately accomplished by an updated RFC 7492. > ISTM that it's worth considering what's possible without revising RFC 7942. Everyone may already know this, but the RFC Editor now has a way of inlining errata - for example, check https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/inline-errata/rfc3261.html. * If we can figure out how to track "what's worth pointing to", perhaps the RFC editor could also inline pointers, rather than dorking with the RFC text itself. Best, Spencer * I believe Adam Roach did the heavy lifting on proving this was feasible when he was on the IESG. I'm not sure where the actual code used today came from, but I do want to give credit when I can. > Thank you for reading so far, and thank you again for considering this of > enough interest to put it on the EDM agenda. I look forward to your > thoughts on this. > > [1] A quick recap and restatement of the need for a stable archival area > controlled by the IETF is in > https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/wgchairs/He68KsKijRg2FAIpxRFi5MyJGis/ > That link contains other links to the original thread for those of you who > want to catch up with the discussion. > > Cheers, > > - vijay > -- > Edm mailing list > Edm@iab.org > https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/edm >
- [Edm] Some thoughts on Sep 1 meeting, Issue 1 Vijay Gurbani
- Re: [Edm] Some thoughts on Sep 1 meeting, Issue 1 Spencer Dawkins at IETF
- Re: [Edm] Some thoughts on Sep 1 meeting, Issue 1 Vijay Gurbani
- Re: [Edm] Some thoughts on Sep 1 meeting, Issue 1 Mirja Kuehlewind
- Re: [Edm] Some thoughts on Sep 1 meeting, Issue 1 Vijay Gurbani
- Re: [Edm] Some thoughts on Sep 1 meeting, Issue 1 Mirja Kuehlewind
- Re: [Edm] Some thoughts on Sep 1 meeting, Issue 1 Vijay Gurbani
- Re: [Edm] Some thoughts on Sep 1 meeting, Issue 1 Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Edm] Some thoughts on Sep 1 meeting, Issue 1 Vijay Gurbani