Re: [Geopriv] IPR on geopriv-arch

["DRAGE, Keith (Keith)" <[e-mail]>]

The discussion in this direction is irrelevant to the geopriv group.

The geopriv group has no responsibility for finding whether the IPR declarations are valid (nor does the IETF), or indeed for chasing missing IPR declarations (which the IETF probably as a whole does have - but you do that on different lists).

The sole responsibility of the geopriv group on this question is to decide whether the proposed RFC should change direction to another solution as a result of these declarations.

For my two cents, carry on as we are.

Keith

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [e-mail]
> [mailto:[e-mail]] On Behalf Of todd glassey
> Sent: Saturday, October 16, 2010 4:16 AM
> To: [e-mail]
> Subject: Re: [Geopriv] IPR on geopriv-arch
>
> On 10/15/2010 2:34 PM, todd glassey wrote:
> > On 10/15/2010 8:03 AM, Carl Reed wrote:
> >> Todd -
> >>
>
> My apologies to the Group for this caustic response but the
> idea that anyone can be not-responsible for bad IP practices
> because someone else said to is funny.
>
> Again my apologies to the group for this commentary.
>
> Todd
>
> >> As far as I know, you are not an IP lawyer, so don't
> pretend to be one.
> >
> > Really Carl???  I have three pieces of litigation over IP
> infringement
> > in the US and California Courts right now and one of them is on the
> > GPS Location Control Patent. I have another in the Bankruptcy Court
> > over a BK Fraud Complaint I filed.
> >
> >> Before making accusations, I would suggest you learn how the IETF
> >> (and other standards organizations) develop their IPR policies.
> >
> >
> > Oh you mean this WG -
> http://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/ipr/charter/  ???
> >
> > You may want to check the groups archive before shoving
> your leg any
> > farther down your throat unless you like looking like an idiot.
> >
> > So lets talk about IPR and the use of any IPR since this constrains
> > potential issues for this WG. The idea that you are not responsible
> > for laws you break because the idiots in the IPR WG said you were
> > clear is so funny I cant stand it.
> >
> >
> > IP per 35 U.S.C. § 271(a) - AKA "the Hatch Wellman Act"...
> > -----------------------------------------------------------
> > As it happens "Hatch Wellman" is REAL CLEAR and the use by a
> > commercial entity of ANY PATENTED IP IS ILLEGAL UNDER 35 U.S.C. §
> > 271(a), which stated that mere “use” of a patented
> invention, without
> > either manufacture or sale, is actionable. It reasoned that
> > experiments that are in keeping with the legitimate business of an
> > alleged infringer are not exempt from infringement.
> >
> > We tried to tell this to Harald and he ignored us... and in fact he
> > banished me for insisting "the IETF was incompetent for refusing to
> > review how 35 USC 271 actually plays into this". Check the
> archive...
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > IETF Paper Tigers
> > -----------------
> > One of my favorite IETF paper-tigers (you know those fictitious
> > full-body condoms that techies put in place to justify "forcing the
> > rest of the world to ignore their incompetence?") is the Copyright
> > Act's Research Exemption, Section 107. The problem is that
> (C) SS107
> > does not set aside HATCH WELLMAN and that's the issue here.
> >
> > The idea was from what I understood from Harald and the rest of the
> > IPR Team "that since it (the iETF) is only publishing paper about
> > technology no IP Rights to devices or to enable the actual
> use of that
> > IP in software or hardware are necessary" but this shows how really
> > stupid the management of the IPR WG is. The law is the law, and the
> > use of patented IPR in this forum is controlled under
> Hatch-Wellman and that is that.
> >
> > Under Hatch-Wellman the publication of those patented IP's in a
> > research document by any entity who's commercial in form is
> > prohibited. In instances where that entity's commercial
> products are
> > pure research is also a commercial use. So no, the IETF is
> not exempt
> > since it's "business" now that there is an  IP Management
> Trust with
> > paid staff is to protect that IP, this created a whole new
> world of hurt I think.
> >
> > Here is a pointer to an analysis out of the ABA on the effect of
> > Hatch-Wellman.
> >
> >
> http://www.abanet.org/genpractice/magazine/2005/mar/hatchwaxmanact.htm
> > l
> >
> >
> > How stupid can the management of the IETF really get?
> > -----------------------------------------
> > Pretty freaking stupid is the answer I think.
> >
> > You understand under Hatch-Wellman and the (C) ss 107 research
> > exemption, that this functionally means that "NO ONE MAY
> REPRODUCE ANY
> > IETF WORKS FOR ANY PURPOSE BUT THE ADVANCEMENT OF THOSE STANDARDS
> > WITHIN THE IETF STANDARDS PROCESS" and if that IP Contains ANY
> > patented IP its protected from even the IETF's use because of its
> > licensing models today by Hatch Wellman.
> >
> > One would also think that this means that NO ONE may claim that
> > research exemption for any purpose after that research is complete.
> > ----------------------
> > Meaning that once the IETF Standard is issued no one could
> reproduce
> > those documents since the sponsoring entity - the IETF would have
> > formally completed the research which created that work-product.
> > Likewise when all formal work in extending or formalizing
> that product
> > was completed like what happens with many IETF initiative when the
> > RFC's are issued, that also would end the research phase of that
> > effort terminating ANY AND ALL PUBLICATION rights against that IETF
> > publication as well. Ooops...
> >
> >
> > If that party is a commercial entity - the IETF Licensing
> is worthless.
> > ------------------------------------
> > What that probably means is that anyone who is reproducing the IETF
> > Publications outside of the standards process for any use
> other than
> > the limited scope of that specific initiatives research,
> like all of
> > the parties operating the hundreds of mirrors or those supplying
> > hardcopy as part of their documentation packages as another
> instance,
> > is in direct violation of the copyright act and also possibly the
> > Hatch-Wellman act which opens them to litigation and
> possible prosecution one would think.
> >
> >
> > Why hasn't this blown up 'till now?
> > -----------------------------------
> > Good question - the answer is no one has pressed a formal complaint
> > against the parties who are participating in the IETF yet, but you
> > gotta know that this is coming and that the IETF is going to get
> > bitch-slapped (I think that's the prop-ah "Term of Art")
> when someone
> > (some commercial
> > sponsor) is sued for what their staff do in what I casually
> describe
> > as this grossly unregulated Standards Development Group IMHO.
> >
> >
> > BTW - who specifically do you work for, I want to bring their legal
> > people into this process now and show them your commentary
> here. I am
> > betting they will not be too happy with you.
> >
> > Or you could just apologize formally...
> >
> > Todd Glassey
> >>
> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "todd glassey"
> >> <[e-mail]>
> >> To: "Richard L. Barnes" <[e-mail]>
> >> Cc: <[e-mail]>
> >> Sent: Friday, October 15, 2010 8:34 AM
> >> Subject: Re: [Geopriv] IPR on geopriv-arch
> >>
> >>
> >>> On 10/13/2010 4:35 PM, Richard L. Barnes wrote:
> >>>> Todd,
> >>>>
> >>>> If you believe there are IPR concerns related to active GEOPRIV
> >>>> documents, the Note Well statement (by reference to RFC
> 3979) says
> >>>> that you must disclose them according to the directions here:
> >>>> <http://www.ietf.org/ipr-instructions>
> >>>
> >>> I have already filed numerous instances of claims in the IPR Area
> >>> Richard for GEOPRIOV and Location Based Services - considering I
> >>> invented specifically them 13 years ago.
> >>>
> >>> By the way - I have a new control protocol for SMART MUNITIONS
> >>> including those which are used in some of the Ballistic
> Sensor Fused
> >>> Munitions (of which GPS Guided devices are just one instance).
> >>>
> >>>>
> >>>> While I see from the IPR tracker that you are well familiar with
> >>>> this process, I do not see any filings from you with
> regard to this
> >>>> particular document.
> >>>
> >>> There is NO contractual practice the IETF can require of
> someone who
> >>> is not formally a member of the IETF with regard to these
> filings.
> >>> In fact the ONLY people the term MUST can possibly pertain to are
> >>> 1) Parties submitting data to the IETF for republication; or
> >>> 2) Members of the IETF who are contractually tied to NoteWell and
> >>> the other IPR rules.
> >>>
> >>> So... anytime you want to force those words of yours into
> stone and
> >>> we can address the issues of #1 or #2 then  fine. The idea that
> >>> after an initial disclosure of the existence of IPR
> pertaining to a
> >>> specific subject constitutes a fraud on the IETF's part in
> >>>
> >>> A) Requiring permanent diligence to meet the demand term MUST per
> >>> your analysis
> >>>
> >>> B) Having permanent legal staff also on call to address
> these issues
> >>> and to manage the incompetence of the IETF and its members.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> By the way the failure of the IETF representative of any
> entity to
> >>> convey legal notices to their own legal department is also a key
> >>> issue since most technology companies still hide from what their
> >>> engineers do here.
> >>>
> >>> Todd
> >>>
> >>>>
> >>>> --Richard
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> On Oct 13, 2010, at 3:44 PM, todd glassey wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> On 10/12/2010 10:44 AM, James M. Polk wrote:
> >>>>>> At 11:05 AM 10/12/2010, Richard L. Barnes wrote:
> >>>>>>> <hat type="individual"/>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I am comfortable with this document moving forward.  I have
> >>>>>>> looked at the Enterasys patents, and it looks to me like they
> >>>>>>> relate to specific applications (location-based
> access control
> >>>>>>> and routing), so that they don't intrude on a general
> location
> >>>>>>> architecture.  With regard to the Qualcomm disclosure, their
> >>>>>>> reluctance to provide information makes me a little
> nervous, but
> >>>>>>> it still seems like this document is abstract enough that it
> >>>>>>> would be useful in spite of IPR claims on some specific
> >>>>>>> realizations.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> It's hard to feel comfortable about the unknown.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> James
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Yes but one thing is certain and that is that this same
> draft also
> >>>>> violates the GEOPRIV IPR notices we already have on
> file as well so...
> >>>>> there are other issues.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> And FWIW - the next Court date in the first litigation of that
> >>>>> patent issue... is tomorrow with the next one being the
> 9th of November.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Todd Glassey
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> --Richard
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> On Oct 12, 2010, at 11:58 AM, Richard L. Barnes wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> <hat type="chair"/>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Hey all,
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Two IPR disclosures have been filed with regard to
> draft-ietf-
> >>>>>>>> geopriv-arch, one from Qualcomm and one from Enterasys:
> >>>>>>>> <https://datatracker.ietf.org/ipr/1394/>
> >>>>>>>> <https://datatracker.ietf.org/ipr/1402/>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> The Qualcomm disclosure relates to an unpublished US patent
> >>>>>>>> application, so no information is available from the
> USPTO website.
> >>>>>>>> Robert and I have asked Qualcomm for further
> technical details,
> >>>>>>>> but have not received any.  The Enterasys disclosure
> relates to
> >>>>>>>> three issued patents.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> The question for the group is whether the WG is comfortable
> >>>>>>>> moving these documents forward given these IPR
> disclosures.  If
> >>>>>>>> you have thoughts on this question, please send them to the
> >>>>>>>> list no later than Monday, 18 Oct.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Thanks,
> >>>>>>>> --Richard
> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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> >>>>>>>> [e-mail]
> >>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/geopriv
> >>>>>>>
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