Re: HTTP/2 and TCP CWND

"Eggert, Lars" <lars@netapp.com> Mon, 22 April 2013 08:07 UTC

Return-Path: <ietf-http-wg-request@listhub.w3.org>
X-Original-To: ietfarch-httpbisa-archive-bis2Juki@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: ietfarch-httpbisa-archive-bis2Juki@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 42DAE21F841D for <ietfarch-httpbisa-archive-bis2Juki@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 22 Apr 2013 01:07:04 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -10.599
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8]
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3V+Z2NyRcLh5 for <ietfarch-httpbisa-archive-bis2Juki@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 22 Apr 2013 01:07:03 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from frink.w3.org (frink.w3.org [128.30.52.56]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7938E21F85CB for <httpbisa-archive-bis2Juki@lists.ietf.org>; Mon, 22 Apr 2013 01:06:59 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from lists by frink.w3.org with local (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from <ietf-http-wg-request@listhub.w3.org>) id 1UUBm0-00089w-8B for ietf-http-wg-dist@listhub.w3.org; Mon, 22 Apr 2013 08:06:52 +0000
Resent-Message-Id: <E1UUBm0-00089w-8B@frink.w3.org>
Received: from lisa.w3.org ([128.30.52.41]) by frink.w3.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from <ylafon@w3.org>) id 1UUBlx-00083z-3U for ietf-http-wg@listhub.w3.org; Mon, 22 Apr 2013 08:06:49 +0000
Received: from jay.w3.org ([128.30.52.169]) by lisa.w3.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from <ylafon@w3.org>) id 1UUBlx-0001P7-0u for ietf-http-wg@w3.org; Mon, 22 Apr 2013 08:06:49 +0000
Received: from ylafon by jay.w3.org with local (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from <ylafon@w3.org>) id 1UUBlw-0007an-Rq for ietf-http-wg@w3.org; Mon, 22 Apr 2013 04:06:48 -0400
X-Return-path: <>
X-Received: from maggie.w3.org ([128.30.52.39]) by jay.w3.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.72) id 1URrrp-0001fk-U3 for ylafon@jay.w3.org; Mon, 15 Apr 2013 18:27:17 -0400
X-Received: from frink.w3.org ([128.30.52.56]) by maggie.w3.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.72) id 1URrrp-0004LN-Pl for ylafon@w3.org; Mon, 15 Apr 2013 22:27:17 +0000
X-Received: from lists by frink.w3.org with local (Exim 4.72) id 1URrrp-0006ml-IG for ylafon@w3.org; Mon, 15 Apr 2013 22:27:17 +0000
Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 22:27:17 +0000
X-From_: lars@netapp.com Mon Apr 15 22:27:16 2013
X-Received: from lisa.w3.org ([128.30.52.41]) by frink.w3.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from <lars@netapp.com>) id 1URrro-0006mA-8x for ietf-http-wg@listhub.w3.org; Mon, 15 Apr 2013 22:27:16 +0000
X-Received: from mx12.netapp.com ([216.240.18.77]) by lisa.w3.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_ARCFOUR_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from <lars@netapp.com>) id 1URrrn-0004s5-FC for ietf-http-wg@w3.org; Mon, 15 Apr 2013 22:27:16 +0000
X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.87,479,1363158000"; d="scan'208";a="40886225"
X-Received: from smtp2.corp.netapp.com ([10.57.159.114]) by mx12-out.netapp.com with ESMTP; 15 Apr 2013 15:26:48 -0700
X-Received: from vmwexceht04-prd.hq.netapp.com (vmwexceht04-prd.hq.netapp.com [10.106.77.34]) by smtp2.corp.netapp.com (8.13.1/8.13.1/NTAP-1.6) with ESMTP id r3FMQlra019013; Mon, 15 Apr 2013 15:26:47 -0700 (PDT)
X-Received: from SACEXCMBX01-PRD.hq.netapp.com ([169.254.2.71]) by vmwexceht04-prd.hq.netapp.com ([10.106.77.34]) with mapi id 14.02.0342.003; Mon, 15 Apr 2013 15:26:47 -0700
From: "Eggert, Lars" <lars@netapp.com>
To: Roberto Peon <grmocg@gmail.com>
CC: Gabriel Montenegro <Gabriel.Montenegro@microsoft.com>, "Simpson, Robby (GE Energy Management)" <robby.simpson@ge.com>, Eliot Lear <lear@cisco.com>, Robert Collins <robertc@squid-cache.org>, Jitu Padhye <padhye@microsoft.com>, "ietf-http-wg@w3.org" <ietf-http-wg@w3.org>, "Brian Raymor (MS OPEN TECH)" <Brian.Raymor@microsoft.com>, Rob Trace <Rob.Trace@microsoft.com>, Dave Thaler <dthaler@microsoft.com>, Martin Thomson <martin.thomson@skype.net>, Martin Stiemerling <martin.stiemerling@neclab.eu>
Thread-Topic: HTTP/2 and TCP CWND
Thread-Index: Ac4u/JrxD8HEzB3rR8CdUf/Gdhfe2wAColQAAADGCYAAANjQAAIugYQQAIIaNAAAFR2LAAAAqK8AAAXmO4AABiSsgAAChaoAAABkvAA=
Old-Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 22:26:47 +0000
Message-ID: <95367D0C-D34C-4542-A0DE-921BBDE6A239@netapp.com>
References: <516B8824.8040904@cisco.com> <DF8F6DB7E5D58B408041AE4D927B2F48CBB88103@CINURCNA14.e2k.ad.ge.com> <CAP+FsNfeUtKfOMPKriYP7Ak_YzsjEFKvprJOAQaxYP7_BxTBsw@mail.gmail.com> <cf53405c48dc431693573a9148776c8a@BN1PR03MB072.namprd03.prod.outlook.com> <8B0AAE84-CAB8-483B-99FD-DA6A0CA13395@netapp.com> <CAP+FsNca6TOB2B-ntnEHvzPx3JY=6Qcp34RgF7uQsbdsLUbptQ@mail.gmail.com>
In-Reply-To: <CAP+FsNca6TOB2B-ntnEHvzPx3JY=6Qcp34RgF7uQsbdsLUbptQ@mail.gmail.com>
Accept-Language: en-US
Content-Language: en-US
X-MS-Has-Attach:
X-MS-TNEF-Correlator:
x-originating-ip: [10.106.53.51]
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-ID: <A4C206EA22A2AD489D4EBB6D1DE5DEF5@tahoe.netapp.com>
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
MIME-Version: 1.0
Received-SPF: pass client-ip=216.240.18.77; envelope-from=lars@netapp.com; helo=mx12.netapp.com
X-W3C-Hub-Spam-Status: No, score=-7.5
X-W3C-Hub-Spam-Report: BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.556, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001
X-W3C-Scan-Sig: lisa.w3.org 1URrrn-0004s5-FC 6bb46197d9d6e2ab509191585027c185
Old-X-Envelope-To: ietf-http-wg
X-DSPAM-Result: Innocent
X-DSPAM-Processed: Mon Apr 15 18:27:24 2013
X-DSPAM-Confidence: 0.9984
X-DSPAM-Improbability: 1 in 61020 chance of being spam
X-DSPAM-Probability: 0.0000
X-DSPAM-Signature: 516c7ecc64381804284693
ReSent-Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2013 04:06:44 -0400
ReSent-From: Yves Lafon <ylafon@w3.org>
ReSent-To: ietf-http-wg@w3.org
ReSent-Subject: [Moderator Action] Re: HTTP/2 and TCP CWND
ReSent-User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (DEB 1167 2008-08-23)
X-Original-To: ietf-http-wg@w3.org
Subject: Re: HTTP/2 and TCP CWND
Archived-At: <http://www.w3.org/mid/95367D0C-D34C-4542-A0DE-921BBDE6A239@netapp.com>
X-Mailing-List: <ietf-http-wg@w3.org> archive/latest/17464
X-Loop: ietf-http-wg@w3.org
Resent-Sender: ietf-http-wg-request@w3.org
Precedence: list
List-Id: <ietf-http-wg.w3.org>
List-Help: <http://www.w3.org/Mail/>
List-Post: <mailto:ietf-http-wg@w3.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-http-wg-request@w3.org?subject=unsubscribe>

Hi,

On Apr 15, 2013, at 15:15, Roberto Peon <grmocg@gmail.com> wrote:
> If it was defined as an opaque blob that the transport layer delegates to
> the application layer to transmit and cache, would it seem as scary?
...
> I think you mistake the intent. The intent is to make it easy for transport
> experimentation by giving a mechanism that can be implemented today of
> storing transport-related data, and by giving that back to the transport
> layer upon session resumption.

why does the app need to be involved here at all? It TCP wants to cache state from one connection instance to the next, it can (and does, in some cases) already do so.

Yeah, for HTTP, you might want the HTTP client to hold that state instead of the HTTP server as an optimization, so you need to get it in and out of the server kernel. But is that really of general usefulness? There seem to be some significant security challenges here, such as whether a server would even trust this opaque information, given that the client could have messed with it. (Blindly using this state could have detrimental effects on other connections the server has open.)

Lars