Re: If not JSON, what then ?

Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org> Mon, 01 August 2016 08:40 UTC

Return-Path: <ietf-http-wg-request+bounce-httpbisa-archive-bis2juki=lists.ie@listhub.w3.org>
X-Original-To: ietfarch-httpbisa-archive-bis2Juki@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: ietfarch-httpbisa-archive-bis2Juki@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 501BC12D1CA for <ietfarch-httpbisa-archive-bis2Juki@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 1 Aug 2016 01:40:47 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -8.208
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-8.208 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.287, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qrIgSTjo49yh for <ietfarch-httpbisa-archive-bis2Juki@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 1 Aug 2016 01:40:46 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from frink.w3.org (frink.w3.org [128.30.52.56]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 23DC912D1D3 for <httpbisa-archive-bis2Juki@lists.ietf.org>; Mon, 1 Aug 2016 01:40:43 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from lists by frink.w3.org with local (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from <ietf-http-wg-request@listhub.w3.org>) id 1bU8ho-0008Up-Va for ietf-http-wg-dist@listhub.w3.org; Mon, 01 Aug 2016 08:36:13 +0000
Resent-Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2016 08:36:12 +0000
Resent-Message-Id: <E1bU8ho-0008Up-Va@frink.w3.org>
Received: from maggie.w3.org ([128.30.52.39]) by frink.w3.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:DHE_RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:128) (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from <cabo@tzi.org>) id 1bU8hj-0008Tj-Fx for ietf-http-wg@listhub.w3.org; Mon, 01 Aug 2016 08:36:07 +0000
Received: from relay5-d.mail.gandi.net ([217.70.183.197]) by maggie.w3.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA256:256) (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from <cabo@tzi.org>) id 1bU8hf-0008Kt-RL for ietf-http-wg@w3.org; Mon, 01 Aug 2016 08:36:06 +0000
Received: from mfilter14-d.gandi.net (mfilter14-d.gandi.net [217.70.178.142]) by relay5-d.mail.gandi.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8ECA041C09C; Mon, 1 Aug 2016 10:33:27 +0200 (CEST)
X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at mfilter14-d.gandi.net
Received: from relay5-d.mail.gandi.net ([IPv6:::ffff:217.70.183.197]) by mfilter14-d.gandi.net (mfilter14-d.gandi.net [::ffff:10.0.15.180]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fL2b2faQ_1DJ; Mon, 1 Aug 2016 10:33:26 +0200 (CEST)
X-Originating-IP: 93.199.227.76
Received: from nar-3.local (p5DC7E34C.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [93.199.227.76]) (Authenticated sender: cabo@cabo.im) by relay5-d.mail.gandi.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 6603341C0B0; Mon, 1 Aug 2016 10:33:25 +0200 (CEST)
Message-ID: <579F0952.4030607@tzi.org>
Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2016 10:33:22 +0200
From: Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org>
User-Agent: Postbox 4.0.8 (Macintosh/20151105)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Poul-Henning Kamp <phk@phk.freebsd.dk>
CC: HTTP Working Group <ietf-http-wg@w3.org>
References: <77778.1470037414@critter.freebsd.dk>
In-Reply-To: <77778.1470037414@critter.freebsd.dk>
X-Enigmail-Version: 1.2.3
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-W3C-Hub-Spam-Status: No, score=-7.8
X-W3C-Hub-Spam-Report: AWL=0.849, BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, W3C_AA=-1, W3C_IRA=-1, W3C_IRR=-3, W3C_WL=-1
X-W3C-Scan-Sig: maggie.w3.org 1bU8hf-0008Kt-RL 5d817374fa17c927dfcb3b0de97f4edf
X-Original-To: ietf-http-wg@w3.org
Subject: Re: If not JSON, what then ?
Archived-At: <http://www.w3.org/mid/579F0952.4030607@tzi.org>
Resent-From: ietf-http-wg@w3.org
X-Mailing-List: <ietf-http-wg@w3.org> archive/latest/32108
X-Loop: ietf-http-wg@w3.org
Resent-Sender: ietf-http-wg-request@w3.org
Precedence: list
List-Id: <ietf-http-wg.w3.org>
List-Help: <http://www.w3.org/Mail/>
List-Post: <mailto:ietf-http-wg@w3.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ietf-http-wg-request@w3.org?subject=unsubscribe>

Hi Poul,

(I'm only lurking in this WG because the HTTP protocols are useful for
certain IoT applications; however I do understand the design focus here
is more on browser-web/big-web applications.)

Poul-Henning Kamp wrote:
> My personal intuition was that we should find a binary serialization
> (like CORS), 

I'm assuming here you mean CBOR?

> and base64 it into HTTP1-2:  Ie: design for the future
> and shoe-horn into the present.  But no obvious binary serialization
> seems to exist, CORS was panned by a number of people in the WS as
> too complicated, 

(If you are talking about CBOR:)
Well, it is more complicated than doing nothing.

Once a bespoke design of a data model and serialization is completed,
that is likely to be as complicated as CBOR (or even more).

The real problem is then that we have added another data model and
serialization of that data model to the overall complexity that needs to
be managed by a system that connects to the web.
(That may not make a difference for a browser, but it does for IoT and
other machine-to-machine applications.)

The specific data model that you have designed looks fine to me; it
should be representable in CBOR without problem.  What remains is the
cognitive dissonance of having done a base64(url) transformation, but as
you say that is not a real technical problem with HPACK.
(I am aware of the debugging advantages of text encoding, but these are
values that go into HTTP/2 headers and are obscured by HPACK, anyway.)

> and gag-reflexes were triggered by ASN.1.

I do sympathize here :-)

Grüße, Carsten