Re: [I18ndir] I-D on filesystem I18N

Nico Williams <nico@cryptonector.com> Tue, 07 July 2020 15:59 UTC

Return-Path: <nico@cryptonector.com>
X-Original-To: i18ndir@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: i18ndir@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 13F803A0E8D for <i18ndir@ietfa.amsl.com>; Tue, 7 Jul 2020 08:59:07 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.099
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cryptonector.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DIs8sOaMdZ5n for <i18ndir@ietfa.amsl.com>; Tue, 7 Jul 2020 08:59:05 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from bonobo.dogwood.relay.mailchannels.net (bonobo.dogwood.relay.mailchannels.net [23.83.211.22]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1873A3A0E8A for <i18ndir@ietf.org>; Tue, 7 Jul 2020 08:59:04 -0700 (PDT)
X-Sender-Id: dreamhost|x-authsender|nico@cryptonector.com
Received: from relay.mailchannels.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by relay.mailchannels.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id EBD82341B69; Tue, 7 Jul 2020 15:59:03 +0000 (UTC)
Received: from pdx1-sub0-mail-a38.g.dreamhost.com (100-96-12-16.trex.outbound.svc.cluster.local [100.96.12.16]) (Authenticated sender: dreamhost) by relay.mailchannels.net (Postfix) with ESMTPA id A24CA341519; Tue, 7 Jul 2020 15:59:02 +0000 (UTC)
X-Sender-Id: dreamhost|x-authsender|nico@cryptonector.com
Received: from pdx1-sub0-mail-a38.g.dreamhost.com (pop.dreamhost.com [64.90.62.162]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384) by 0.0.0.0:2500 (trex/5.18.8); Tue, 07 Jul 2020 15:59:03 +0000
X-MailChannels-SenderId: dreamhost|x-authsender|nico@cryptonector.com
X-MailChannels-Auth-Id: dreamhost
X-Harmony-Juvenile: 39f43dbf66f68c4a_1594137543820_3345220404
X-MC-Loop-Signature: 1594137543820:4085158283
X-MC-Ingress-Time: 1594137543819
Received: from pdx1-sub0-mail-a38.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pdx1-sub0-mail-a38.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3BA3CB4729; Tue, 7 Jul 2020 08:59:02 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=cryptonector.com; h=date :from:to:cc:subject:message-id:references:mime-version :content-type:in-reply-to; s=cryptonector.com; bh=YdyhNh1eX9TN4y jJ3SCh/7g+5u0=; b=dOGAS4Og/y+XhV50iJsDPSahG1+HuflIZM1vwFXC9cs7sc cgSJBJ0x7FyJTR2KNe9MbyTjgtUtnFcQnfjLtwHFFRgcnrxJnyLEMCtLZ/KsyVcq RwrKxxch30EEOe/hUBdb28emLmuyZayM6xRiz7M8dock+VOH/4MT2BYSfJ9hY=
Received: from localhost (unknown [24.28.108.183]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: nico@cryptonector.com) by pdx1-sub0-mail-a38.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 5694CB4721; Tue, 7 Jul 2020 08:58:59 -0700 (PDT)
Date: Tue, 07 Jul 2020 10:58:56 -0500
X-DH-BACKEND: pdx1-sub0-mail-a38
From: Nico Williams <nico@cryptonector.com>
To: John C Klensin <john-ietf@jck.com>
Cc: Patrik Fältström <patrik@frobbit.se>, i18ndir@ietf.org
Message-ID: <20200707155855.GO3100@localhost>
References: <20200706225139.GJ3100@localhost> <B8BC0F0A-94AB-4BEF-8A5F-449049E28D8F@frobbit.se> <20200707070456.GK3100@localhost> <B0FAFBAF9EA570CCFB2575CF@PSB> <20200707150542.GN3100@localhost>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Disposition: inline
In-Reply-To: <20200707150542.GN3100@localhost>
User-Agent: Mutt/1.9.4 (2018-02-28)
X-VR-OUT-STATUS: OK
X-VR-OUT-SCORE: -100
X-VR-OUT-SPAMCAUSE: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeduiedrudehgdeklecutefuodetggdotefrodftvfcurfhrohhfihhlvgemucggtfgfnhhsuhgsshgtrhhisggvpdfftffgtefojffquffvnecuuegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecusecvtfgvtghiphhivghnthhsucdlqddutddtmdenucfjughrpeffhffvuffkfhggtggujggfsehttdertddtredvnecuhfhrohhmpefpihgtohcuhghilhhlihgrmhhsuceonhhitghosegtrhihphhtohhnvggtthhorhdrtghomheqnecuggftrfgrthhtvghrnhepffdtkeethfeuteeviefgfeegjeetjedvhfehgfdvtdefueejheelgeeuhffghffgnecukfhppedvgedrvdekrddutdekrddukeefnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmohguvgepshhmthhppdhhvghloheplhhotggrlhhhohhsthdpihhnvghtpedvgedrvdekrddutdekrddukeefpdhrvghtuhhrnhdqphgrthhhpefpihgtohcuhghilhhlihgrmhhsuceonhhitghosegtrhihphhtohhnvggtthhorhdrtghomheqpdhmrghilhhfrhhomhepnhhitghosegtrhihphhtohhnvggtthhorhdrtghomhdpnhhrtghpthhtohepnhhitghosegtrhihphhtohhnvggtthhorhdrtghomh
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/i18ndir/kuhEty6AmVOKjX2Td9hGTAmXR-0>
Subject: Re: [I18ndir] I-D on filesystem I18N
X-BeenThere: i18ndir@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: Internationalization Directorate <i18ndir.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/i18ndir>, <mailto:i18ndir-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/i18ndir/>
List-Post: <mailto:i18ndir@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:i18ndir-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i18ndir>, <mailto:i18ndir-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 07 Jul 2020 15:59:07 -0000

On Tue, Jul 07, 2020 at 10:05:43AM -0500, Nico Williams wrote:
> On Tue, Jul 07, 2020 at 08:27:36AM -0400, John C Klensin wrote:
> > Except that "so not deal with RTL/LTR issues" is equivalent to
> > "blow off a significant number of people in the world who use
> > such writing systems".  There are probably ways deal with the
> > issues in things like file system paths, but saying "display
> > system are not in scope" and then moving on is probably not a
> > reasonable member of that set.
> 
> [...]

Hmm, unless you meant that mixing of RTL and LTR scripts should be
forbidden.  But that's not a realistic proposition given that file
extensions tend to be a) ASCII (LTR) and b) required, so even within a
single directory it may not be possible.  And even where file extensions
are not required, there is the problem of "dotfile" conventions for
hiding files.  And even if all of those were non-issues and we could ban
mixing of RTL & LTR scripts in any given _filename_, we could never keep
script mixing from happening in absolute _paths_.  So we can't
effectively avoid display issues by forbidding mixing of RTL/LTR
scripts.

Display issues for mixed RTL/LTR paths affect a very large variety of
software, from terminal emulators to browsers (because paths tend to be
used as URI/IRI local parts) to native GUI apps, and much more.  What
more can we do about them than reference Unicode?

Nico
--