Re: [I2nsf] WGLC for draft-ietf-i2nsf-consumer-facing-interface-dm-16

On 20/03/2022 16:45, Roman Danyliw wrote:
> Hi!
>
> Linda: Thanks sending out this assessment and ending the WGLC.
>
> WG: In additional to the IPR check, one other thing I will be looking for in the second WGLC of this document is (a) evidence of review by the WG and (b) support by the WG to publish it (irrespective of whether there is charter milestone or not).  There has been very little WG discussion of this document on the mailing list in the last 18 months and no formal meetings with it as a topic.   Most discussions have been between a reduced set of document authors and directorates reviews/IETF LC/IESG balloting feedback.  The last three documents sent to the IESG (-capability-data-model, monitoring-data-model, nsf-facing-interface-dm) have required substantial changes due to AD review, directorate review and IESG Review (to include them all still being blocked with multiple (2-4) DISCUSSes).  I want to make sure that all future documents the WG requests publication on have gotten the needed review in the WG.

Roman

Yes!

I see capability-data-model as being the core I-D from which the others 
stem (ideally with a common module of YANG and definitions:-).  I was 
still catching up with the repeated revisions of that when nsf-facing 
and nsf-monitoring went forward. IMHO the IESG could have had a easier 
time if the lessons of capability had been applied to the latter two 
before seeking to progress them; easy to say in hindsight.

I think Ben's DISCUSS on capability 2/2/22 are key.  He points out that 
the level of detail expected is unclear.  What does monitoring on a 
routing header mean?  All of them, including future ones, any one or 
what?  Obvious now Ben has said so but I never thought of it. Looking 
back at RFC8329 I see no mention of routing headers being part of this 
work (where are the authors of RFC8329 when we need them?).  Ben also 
comments that a base capability is ambiguous - can it be used per se as 
in derived-from-or self or only as derived-from?  Likewise the 
resolution strategies are obvious until Ben points out that they are not 
defined anywhere that he (or I) can see.  I note that one of them has 
disappeared from capabiity -26 but like most of the changes to this and 
the other I-Ds, there is no consensus for this change because there has 
been no discussion within the WG.

This lack of consensus is to me the defining characteristic of the I2NSF 
WG.  At AD review you asked for expanded definitions in a few cases and 
got them which seemed fine.  Then a ..art reviewer asks for a whole lot 
more and gets them.  As I commented, to me this is a lack of familiarity 
on the part of the ..art reviewer and for most people involved, like 
you, like me, like other ..art reviewers, the existing definitions are 
adequate.  And this is a multi-headed hydra because the new text takes 
the I-D out of line with the other I-D (my bane), with other parts of 
the same I-D, and, as many have commented, the English often needs 
attention and so any change to the text is likely to generate further 
change and may even be unclear or worse.  The changes made generate 
issues faster than I can point them out so the number of unfixed issues 
increases exponentially.  Several of Ben's or Lars's textual comments I 
have marked in my copy as issues to raise when I have raised the larger, 
more technical ones; I could have saved Ben and Lars some time (as a WG 
should do).

Out of many such I would highlight the use of 'l4' or 'layer4'.  Some 
time ago I pointed out that this was unusual in the IETF, 'transport' 
being more common and this was duly changed in the identity.  A reviewer 
of nsf-monitoring found the word 'port', used in the context of 
ipv4/ipv6, ambiguous and suggested 'l4port' which was duly incorporated 
in some parts of that particular I-D and not in others and not in the 
other I-Ds (my bane again).  As before, I think the need to qualify 
'port' is more of a comment on the reviewer and not on the I-D:-) Had 
the issue been raised on the list I would have objected!

So:
- the rate of change on these I-Ds is high (I have yet to catch up with 
all those that appeared in January and February)
- no change has WG consensus because nothing is discussed on the WG list
- changes are made to one part of one I-D without being reflected in 
other parts of that I-D or in the other related I-D
- changes lack clarity and so raise further issues requiring change.

For me, the root cause is the way of working of the WG, unlike any other 
I am involved with in that comments made by ...art, by me, do not get 
reviewed, discussed.  Nothing has consensus.  Coupled with this is the 
high rate of change induced by the authors - sometimes I can see where 
the change came from, other times I cannot - and the lack of a clear 
scope for the work, e.g. a lack of alignment with RFC8329 which ought to 
be the high-level definition of what this work is about.

Tom Petch

>
> Regards,
> Roman
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: I2nsf <i2nsf-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Linda Dunbar
>> Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2022 4:44 PM
>> To: t petch <ietfa@btconnect.com>; Mr. Jaehoon Paul Jeong
>> <jaehoon.paul@gmail.com>
>> Cc: i2nsf@ietf.org; Patrick Lingga <patricklink888@gmail.com>; skku-iotlab-
>> members <skku-iotlab-members@googlegroups.com>
>> Subject: Re: [I2nsf] WGLC for draft-ietf-i2nsf-consumer-facing-interface-dm-16
>>
>> I2NSF WG,
>>
>> Since the comments from Tom Petch haven't been addressed, we can't
>> complete the WGLC for draft-ietf-i2nsf-consumer-facing-interface-dm-16.
>> Agree with Tom, the WG needs to reach consensus if it is necessary for the
>> draft-ietf-i2nsf-consumer-facing-interface-dm to be consistent with the draft-
>> ietf-i2nsf-nsf-facing-interface-dm.
>>
>> Thank you,
>> Linda Dunbar
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: I2nsf <i2nsf-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of t petch
>> Sent: Wednesday, March 2, 2022 11:20 AM
>> To: Mr. Jaehoon Paul Jeong <jaehoon.paul@gmail.com>
>> Cc: i2nsf@ietf.org; Patrick Lingga <patricklink888@gmail.com>; skku-iotlab-
>> members <skku-iotlab-members@googlegroups.com>
>> Subject: Re: [I2nsf] WGLC for draft-ietf-i2nsf-consumer-facing-interface-dm-16
>>
>> On 02/03/2022 14:40, Mr. Jaehoon Paul Jeong wrote:
>>> Hi Tom,
>>> Patrick and I are finalizing the revision of the NSF-Facing Interface
>>> YANG Data Model Draft this week.
>>
>> If I read it aright, the cut-off for updated I-D for the upcoming IETF is next
>> Monday. after which the system is in purdah for a while.  The IETF website
>> might tell me about the latter (if it had a search  engine:-)
>>
>> Tom Petch
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> After this revision, we will reflect the comments from IESG on this
>>> Consumer-Facing Interface YANG Data Model Draft.
>>>
>>> Thanks for your comments.
>>>
>>> Best Regards,
>>> Paul
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Mar 2, 2022 at 9:31 PM t petch <ietfa@btconnect.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 17/02/2022 17:00, Linda Dunbar wrote:
>>>>> Hello Working Group,
>>>>>
>>>>> Many thanks to the authors to address all the comments from YANG
>>>>> Doctor
>>>> review.
>>>>>
>>>>> This email starts a three-weeks Working Group Last Call for
>>>> https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fdat
>>>> atracker.ietf.org%2Fdoc%2Fdraft-ietf-i2nsf-consumer-facing-interface-
>>>>
>> dm%2F&amp;data=04%7C01%7Clinda.dunbar%40futurewei.com%7C0fd53b96
>> 2cbb4
>>>>
>> 208379608d9fc70f6f5%7C0fee8ff2a3b240189c753a1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7
>> C6378
>>>>
>> 18384373805664%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLC
>> JQIjoiV2
>>>>
>> luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&amp;sdata=F7VLxYYqc6kp
>> xD3
>>>> w15O7Lewbot4zMgkGcozhpKViuJY%3D&amp;reserved=0
>>>>
>>>> I think that this is premature.  As ever, there is substantial
>>>> overlap with other I-D in the set, notably nsf-facing, and, as ever,
>>>> the two I-D do things differently which I think can only confuse.  If
>>>> there is a reason for the differences, then that needs calling out
>>>> IMHO; at the moment it seems arbitrary, such as which ...art reviewer last
>> saw the I-D!
>>>>
>>>> Further, nsf-facing has just attracted a large number of comments
>>>> from IESG Review, many if not most of which apply here.  I think it
>>>> wrong for the IESG to be asked to do the same work all over again so
>>>> I think that the IESG comments on nsf-facing need resolving with the
>>>> IESG first and then the agreed solution - I expect that most of the
>>>> comments by the IESG will be accepted - can be incorporated into this I-D.
>>>>
>>>> Choice of protocols, reference for protocols, way of specifying
>>>> ranges of numbers, indeed way of specifying at all, string language,
>>>> volte,
>>>> RFC793 redundant, all those comments by Alexey on lack of clarity,
>>>> Rob's comments on identity descriptions, example labelling and so on.
>>>>
>>>> Tom Petch
>>>>
>>>>> This poll runs until March 10, 2022.
>>>>>
>>>>> We are also polling for knowledge of any undisclosed IPR that
>>>>> applies to
>>>> this Document, to ensure that IPR has been disclosed in compliance
>>>> with IETF IPR rules (see RFCs 3979, 4879, 3669 and 5378 for more details).
>>>>> If you are listed as an Author or a Contributor of this Document,
>>>>> please
>>>> respond to this email and indicate whether or not you are aware of
>>>> any relevant undisclosed IPR. The Document won't progress without
>>>> answers from all the Authors and Contributors.
>>>>>
>>>>> If you are not listed as an Author or a Contributor, then please
>>>> explicitly respond only if you are aware of any IPR that has not yet
>>>> been disclosed in conformance with IETF rules.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thank you.
>>>>>
>>>>> Linda
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> I2nsf mailing list
>>>>> I2nsf@ietf.org
>>>>> https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fww
>>>>>
>> w.ietf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fi2nsf&amp;data=04%7C01%7Clinda.dun
>>>>>
>> bar%40futurewei.com%7C0fd53b962cbb4208379608d9fc70f6f5%7C0fee8ff2a
>> 3b
>>>>>
>> 240189c753a1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637818384373805664%7CUnknown
>> %7CTWFpb
>>>>>
>> GZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6
>> M
>>>>>
>> n0%3D%7C3000&amp;sdata=0WQB3KY3kIBLT9Dl5xemMrTLAMYolmsqtXjkTrjD
>> eHk%3
>>>>> D&amp;reserved=0
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> I2nsf mailing list
>>>> I2nsf@ietf.org
>>>>
>> https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww
>>>>
>> .ietf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fi2nsf&amp;data=04%7C01%7Clinda.dunba
>>>>
>> r%40futurewei.com%7C0fd53b962cbb4208379608d9fc70f6f5%7C0fee8ff2a3b
>> 240
>>>>
>> 189c753a1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637818384373805664%7CUnknown%7C
>> TWFpbGZsb
>>>>
>> 3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%
>> 3D
>>>>
>> %7C3000&amp;sdata=0WQB3KY3kIBLT9Dl5xemMrTLAMYolmsqtXjkTrjDeHk%3
>> D&amp;
>>>> reserved=0
>>>>
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> I2nsf mailing list
>> I2nsf@ietf.org
>> https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ie
>> tf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fi2nsf&amp;data=04%7C01%7Clinda.dunbar%
>> 40futurewei.com%7C0fd53b962cbb4208379608d9fc70f6f5%7C0fee8ff2a3b24
>> 0189c753a1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637818384373805664%7CUnknown%7
>> CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLC
>> JXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&amp;sdata=0WQB3KY3kIBLT9Dl5xemMrTLAMYolms
>> qtXjkTrjDeHk%3D&amp;reserved=0
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> I2nsf mailing list
>> I2nsf@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i2nsf
> .
>