Re: [Ietf-languages] [EXTERNAL] Re: language identifiers for sign languages (incl. sgn) vs. attribute for indicating the representation of an individual language in "sign language modality"

"Doug Ewell" <doug@ewellic.org> Mon, 25 November 2019 15:56 UTC

Return-Path: <doug@ewellic.org>
X-Original-To: ietf-languages@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: ietf-languages@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D3EA112098F for <ietf-languages@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 25 Nov 2019 07:56:49 -0800 (PST)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -4.097
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id olTf6GjB-Rpm for <ietf-languages@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 25 Nov 2019 07:56:48 -0800 (PST)
Received: from mork.alvestrand.no (mork.alvestrand.no [158.38.152.117]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 994931208B0 for <ietf-languages@ietf.org>; Mon, 25 Nov 2019 07:56:47 -0800 (PST)
Received: by mork.alvestrand.no (Postfix) id 03C647C0AB6; Mon, 25 Nov 2019 16:56:45 +0100 (CET)
Delivered-To: ietf-languages@alvestrand.no
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mork.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id E0CB37C0AB3 for <ietf-languages@alvestrand.no>; Mon, 25 Nov 2019 16:56:44 +0100 (CET)
X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at alvestrand.no
Received: from mork.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mork.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SFOzxEyl2FLy for <ietf-languages@alvestrand.no>; Mon, 25 Nov 2019 16:56:41 +0100 (CET)
X-Greylist: from auto-whitelisted by SQLgrey-1.8.0
X-Greylist: from auto-whitelisted by SQLgrey-1.8.0
X-Comment: SPF skipped for whitelisted relay - client-ip=2620:0:2830:201::1:72; helo=pechora6.dc.icann.org; envelope-from=doug@ewellic.org; receiver=ietf-languages@alvestrand.no
Received: from pechora6.dc.icann.org (pechora6.icann.org [IPv6:2620:0:2830:201::1:72]) by mork.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 78F4F7C0AB1 for <ietf-languages@alvestrand.no>; Mon, 25 Nov 2019 16:56:41 +0100 (CET)
Received: from p3plwbeout03-06.prod.phx3.secureserver.net (p3plsmtp03-06-2.prod.phx3.secureserver.net [72.167.218.218]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by pechora6.dc.icann.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0D6801E00F0 for <ietf-languages@iana.org>; Mon, 25 Nov 2019 15:56:40 +0000 (UTC)
Received: from p3plgemwbe03-03.prod.phx3.secureserver.net ([72.167.218.131]) by :WBEOUT: with SMTP id ZGiJivYivLVY9ZGiJienMQ; Mon, 25 Nov 2019 08:55:47 -0700
X-SID: ZGiJivYivLVY9
Received: (qmail 195244 invoked by uid 99); 25 Nov 2019 15:55:47 -0000
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8"
X-Originating-IP: 208.51.143.189
User-Agent: Workspace Webmail 6.10.5
Message-Id: <20191125085545.665a7a7059d7ee80bb4d670165c8327d.06623292b8.wbe@email03.godaddy.com>
From: Doug Ewell <doug@ewellic.org>
To: "Pyatt, Elizabeth J" <ejp10@psu.edu>, Mark Davis ☕️ <mark@macchiato.com>
Cc: John Cowan <cowan@ccil.org>, Christian Galinski <christian.galinski@chello.at>, Peter Constable <petercon=40microsoft.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, "Fourney, David" <david.fourney@usask.ca>, Sebastian Drude <Sebastian.Drude@outlook.com>, ietf-languages <ietf-languages@iana.org>, "Melinda_Lyons@sil.org" <Melinda_Lyons@sil.org>
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2019 08:55:45 -0700
Mime-Version: 1.0
X-Greylist: Sender DNS name whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.6.2 (pechora6.dc.icann.org [192.0.46.72]); Mon, 25 Nov 2019 15:56:40 +0000 (UTC)
X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4wfAEEX9DyWEvpi/klDF4Vq8lmSmf8DnHag8I6th2F0pURcuCs2nfDefJR4ZHyTJlTTTIWcwnanwtCVykNUr5aGmxgxLsZ6yEGuofmFpzsuAR1R6fBzqW9 M950IF38FudPdNlQ+vbdKtY0sp55BFA5F8zO3Q1fTLoQ46PsvwBn7qoUPRZZNef3JBtzTqm5ZObLvOxvICzZx31WxLIMlpkhgwk=
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ietf-languages/J6BkDwsT9Yimyxe_Euea1O4CtXM>
Subject: Re: [Ietf-languages] [EXTERNAL] Re: language identifiers for sign languages (incl. sgn) vs. attribute for indicating the representation of an individual language in "sign language modality"
X-BeenThere: ietf-languages@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: <ietf-languages.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/ietf-languages>, <mailto:ietf-languages-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/ietf-languages/>
List-Post: <mailto:ietf-languages@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:ietf-languages-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages>, <mailto:ietf-languages-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2019 15:56:50 -0000

Elizabeth is correct that a BCP 47 tag like "it-signed" would be appropriate for a true signed version of Italian, but not for Italian Sign Language, which is a different language and would be tagged "ise".
 
Similarly, signed spoken English (any variety) is not the same as American Sign Language. The former could be "en-signed"; the latter is "ase".
 
ISO 639-3 has code elements for more than 140 sign languages, in addition to the generic [sgn], plus a well-defined mechanism to add more as needed. They are not the issue here. The issue is how to tag signed forms of non-sign languages, such as Signing Exact English.
 
As a side note, I wish Bickford had not included the following in the article Elizabeth cited:
 
> ISO 639-3 announces to the world that your language exists and that
> it is different from all other languages. This can give it more
> prestige and respect.
 
because there are already too many people who request an ISO 639 code element for a language because they think it will give it prestige and respect. (This is usually a problem with new constructed languages, not with established sign languages. But still.)
 
--
Doug Ewell | Thornton, CO, US | ewellic.org" href="http://ewellic.org" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">ewellic.org
 
-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: [Ietf-languages] [EXTERNAL] Re: language identifiers for
sign languages (incl. sgn) vs. attribute for indicating the
representation of an individual language in "sign language modality"
From: "Pyatt, Elizabeth J" <ejp10@psu.edu>
Date: Mon, November 25, 2019 7:18 am
To: Mark Davis ☕️ <mark@macchiato.com>
Cc: <many>

In terms of identifying sign languages, it's important to note that languages such as ASL (American Sign Language) are not variants of a spoken language, but can be independent grammatical systems. 

Finger spelling in ASL can provide a phonetic translation of specific spoken words, but the primary signs have nothing to do with English phonology or grammar. In fact, ASL was an adaptation of French Sign Language (FSL) and as such has object pronouns. It 


ASL also has second person plural pronouns and apparently does not always distinguish gender in the third person. 

Tagging ASL as a variant of English would be incorrect. Tagging ASL as a sign language associated with the U.S.(i.e. sgn-us) might be more accurate. But having appropriate identification tags for the languages would be better, because there are dialects and "accents" in different sign languages.

FYI - SIL does have a mechanism to register specific regional sign languages.

Hope this is useful.

Elizabeth