Re: [Ietf-languages] [EXTERNAL] Re: language identifiers for sign languages (incl. sgn) vs. attribute for indicating the representation of an individual language in "sign language modality"
John Cowan <cowan@ccil.org> Sat, 23 November 2019 02:10 UTC
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From: John Cowan <cowan@ccil.org>
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2019 21:04:05 -0500
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To: Peter Constable <petercon=40microsoft.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
Cc: Doug Ewell <doug@ewellic.org>, Christian Galinski <christian.galinski@chello.at>, "Fourney, David" <david.fourney@usask.ca>, ietf-languages <ietf-languages@iana.org>, Sebastian Drude <Sebastian.Drude@outlook.com>, "Melinda_Lyons@sil.org" <Melinda_Lyons@sil.org>
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Subject: Re: [Ietf-languages] [EXTERNAL] Re: language identifiers for sign languages (incl. sgn) vs. attribute for indicating the representation of an individual language in "sign language modality"
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I agree that the 't' subtag is not suitable, but I don't think a generic '-signed-' subtag is a good idea either. I think we have to use registered variant tags, and I propose the following convention for them: lexifier language tag (3 letters) + disamiguator (2-5 letters or digits). Note that this is a single tag, and you can't tell by looking at it if it is for a signed modality or not. Examples (shown with country subtags for clarity, but they could be omitted): en-US-asefsp: fingerspelled English using ASL letters en-GB-bsifsp: fingerspelled English using British Sign Language letters en-US-asese: Bornstein's signed English (ASL content words, 14 grammatical particles) en-US-asesee1: Seeing Essential English: ASL, modified ASL, and novel signs pl-PL-psosee1: Seeing Essential Polish (like asesee1, but lexified by Polish Sign) en-US-asesee2: Signing Exact English: variant of asesse1 that uses additional ASL signs for some English compound words; also used in SG en-GB-bsise: British Signed English, conceptually similar to asesee1 but not derived from it en-GB-bsisse: Sign-Supported English, uses mouthing to distinguish between English words represented by the same sign in British Sign en-GB-pagetgor: Paget-Gorman Sign, all lexemes are artificial en-asf: mostly Auslan signs with some from ASL, English syntax, used in AU and NZ en-IE-isgise: Irish Signed English (used in the republic) en-UK-bsinisl: based on Northern Ireland dialect of British Sign (which shares some syntax with Irish Sign) fr-FR-fslfs: Français Signé lexified by French Sign fr-BE-sfbfs: Français Signé lexified by French Belgian Sign fr-CA-fcsfs: Français Signé lexified by Québec Sign de-gsglbg: Deutsche Gebärdensprache, used in DE and BE it-IT-iseis: italiano segnato it-IT-iseise: italiano segnato essato And so on. John Cowan http://vrici.lojban.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org Dievas dave dantis; Dievas duos duonos --Lithuanian proverb Deus dedit dentes; deus dabit panem --Latin version thereof Deity donated dentition; deity'll donate doughnuts --English version by Muke Tever God gave gums; God'll give granary --Version by Mat McVeagh On Fri, Nov 22, 2019 at 7:24 PM Peter Constable <petercon= 40microsoft.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote: > The scope of the ‘t’ extension is linguistic content that has undergone > some type of transform in its expression, and signed modality for a spoken > language could be considered a transform. But the ‘t’ extension as > currently defined doesn’t support this. What is supported is primarily > dealing with text transformations. Also, the way the ‘t’ extension works is > that the additional information declares what content was transformed _ > *from*_, not what it is transformed _*into*_. For signed modality of > spoken languages, what’s needed is a way to indicate signed modality as the > final expression, not the source. > > > > So, I don’t think the ‘t’ extension is appropriate. > > > > I think a variant subtag “signed” or “signmod” would be better. The main > problem that would arise is that this is very generic (it could be usefully > applied to any oral language), which there has been resistance to in the > past. A smaller issue is that, while variant tags for specific > signed-modality variants could be registered, it might make sense to use a > subtag sequence along the lines -signed-modvarnt, but it’s currently not > possible to specify a prefix as anything other than a valid language tag. > (E.g., *-signed can’t be a prefix specification.) That wouldn’t be a > problem as long as the signed-modality variant is specific to a particular > language, as would be the case for (e.g.) Signed Exact English. > > > > > > > > Peter > > > > *From:* Ietf-languages <ietf-languages-bounces@ietf.org> *On Behalf Of *Doug > Ewell > *Sent:* Friday, November 22, 2019 1:05 PM > *To:* Christian Galinski <christian.galinski@chello.at>; 'Fourney, David' > <david.fourney@usask.ca> > *Cc:* ietf-languages <ietf-languages@iana.org>; 'Sebastian Drude' < > Sebastian.Drude@outlook.com>; Melinda_Lyons@sil.org > *Subject:* [EXTERNAL] Re: [Ietf-languages] language identifiers for sign > languages (incl. sgn) vs. attribute for indicating the representation of an > individual language in "sign language modality" > > > > Hi Christian, > > > > > Many true sign languages (se definitions below), such as “ase” > > (American Sign Language [ASL], which /fictively/ might even have a > > Newfoundland and Labrador variety – to be coded ase-CA-NL in line > > with BCP47 rules) have already a language identifier. > > > > This example is actually not valid BCP 47 syntax. The use of ISO 3166-1 > country codes as region subtags doesn't extend to appending ISO 3166-2 > subdivision codes directly. You would need to use "ase-u-sd-canl" or > "ase-CA-u-sd-canl". See UTS #35, Section 3.6.5. > > > > > The question to Doug is, how the BCP and Unicode rules deal with the > > above-mentioned difference between (true) “individual sign languages” > > and the “signed language modality” (as a sort of “transform” of any > > individual language)? > > > > I don't believe there are or should be any "Unicode rules" (which I assume > refers to CLDR and the 't' or 'u' extension) that deal with this. > > > > One approach would be to request a variant subtag, such as 'signed', to > represent the signed modality of a spoken language, such as (but not > limited to) Signing Exact English. See RFC 5646, Section 2.2.5 for details > on variant subtags and Section 3.6 for details on requesting a registration. > > > > However, some may argue that modality is beyond the scope of BCP 47 > variants and would suggest a CLDR extension to deal with this within the > 't' extension framework. In that case, your best bet would be to contact > cldr-contact@unicode.org . > > > > -- > Doug Ewell | Thornton, CO, US | ewellic.org > <https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fewellic.org&data=02%7C01%7Cpetercon%40microsoft.com%7C19558599ac7d421157fc08d76f8fc274%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C637100535555481188&sdata=5sWZ089qfuVRPWbmetKrFDHskz%2BETA2vY0ioACdSzos%3D&reserved=0> > > > > > > -------- Original Message -------- > Subject: language identifiers for sign languages (incl. sgn) vs. > attribute for indicating the representation of an individual language in > "sign language modality" > From: "Christian Galinski" <christian.galinski@chello.at> > Date: Fri, November 22, 2019 11:48 am > To: "'Fourney, David'" <david.fourney@usask.ca> > Cc: <Melinda_Lyons@sil.org>, "'Sebastian Drude'" > <Sebastian.Drude@outlook.com>, <doug@ewellic.org> > > > Dear David, > > > > First I have to apologize for my long silence – I was absorbed with work > on several standards. > > > > We are now at a crucial moment where things need to be clarified in ISO > 639-4 “language coding” (and ISO/TR 21636 “Language varieties”) – including > your issue of how to identify “individual sign languages” (i.e. true > individual sign languages, which are not just a modality of spoken > language) and the “signed language modality” which is a signed > representation of a spoken language). > > > > 1. concerning the difference between “individual sign languages” and > “signed language modality”, the use of the language identifier “sgn” (in > library use) is confined to an unidentifiable *individual sign > language* – it is NOT referring to a “signed language modality”. > According to the fundamental rules of language coding, we cannot change the > scope of “sgn”, nor ignore the difference between sign language and the > signed language modality. > Therefore, for the *sign language modality* we need an “attribute” to > be added to the language identifier of an individual language, e.g. if the > sign language modality of the type of “Signing Exact English” is used. > 2. However, I could not find an identifier for *signed language > modality*, nor a mechanism for inserting an identifier for this in: > > *https://tools.ietf.org/html/bcp47* > <https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Ftools.ietf.org%2Fhtml%2Fbcp47&data=02%7C01%7Cpetercon%40microsoft.com%7C19558599ac7d421157fc08d76f8fc274%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C637100535555486190&sdata=PWlDE0pdRCgLBG4wsnprwit5%2B6EeB%2Fux%2FiApkJkmweg%3D&reserved=0> > > *https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6497#ref-UTS35* > <https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Ftools.ietf.org%2Fhtml%2Frfc6497%23ref-UTS35&data=02%7C01%7Cpetercon%40microsoft.com%7C19558599ac7d421157fc08d76f8fc274%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C637100535555491183&sdata=Y3Zi1erRIWT%2F8K%2F5ZhtfSPCofmTkczyny89RagNWmhA%3D&reserved=0> > > *http://unicode.org/reports/tr35/* > <https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Funicode.org%2Freports%2Ftr35%2F&data=02%7C01%7Cpetercon%40microsoft.com%7C19558599ac7d421157fc08d76f8fc274%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C637100535555496180&sdata=fezBI46al7DmxtciBBIwI7Fj%2Fuuyor7d8uB7xdyvzM4%3D&reserved=0> > > The regular order of attributes to a language tag (language identifier) is > “lang-geogr” (dialect), or “lang-script” (language written in a certain > script) or “lang-script-geogr” (language in a script in a certain region).. > In between, a “t” (for “transform” in the meaning of transcription, > transliteration, translation or other) may be inserted. > > > > From your experience/problems with video technology (and HTML), the > questions to you would be: > > 1. Many true sign languages (se definitions below), such as “ase” > (American Sign Language [ASL], which /fictively/ might even have a > Newfoundland and Labrador variety – to be coded ase-CA-NL in line with > BCP47 rules) have already a language identifier. > *Does it need another attribute to further specify them as a sign > language? *In that case, an attribute must be found which is different > from “sgn”. How could it look like? > 2. In the case of a *signed language modality*, such as “Signing Exact > English” the core language identifier for English would be “eng”. It would > need an attribute to identify it as the signed language modality (which > could be followed by a country code, if there are “dialects” of /fictive/ > eng-xxx-AUS meaning “Signing Exact English as used in Australia”. What > could “xxx” indicating “signed language modality look like? > 3. It probably would not help to use an attribute identifier “Xxxx” in > the slot of “script code”, as a signed language modality might slightly > differ depending on the script used, even if it is the same spoken language > (represented in different scripts in different areas/communities). > 4. Could the “t” (transform) symbol be of help – as a given signed > language modality somehow is a “transformation” of a spoken language? > > > > 1. The above questions (resp. the answer to them) could have an impact > on ISO 639 and ISO/TR 21636 insofar as we should not formulate provisions > in these documents which conflict with other standards. We should rather > try to find generic solutions. > > > > The question to Doug is, how the BCP and Unicode rules deal with the > above-mentioned difference between (true) “individual sign languages” and > the “signed language modality” (as a sort of “transform” of any individual > language)? see the respective terminology entries below > > > > Best regards > > Christian > > > > > > p.s. > > In the most recent revised version of ISO 639-4 we came up with the > following terminology entries: > > individual sign language > > NOT: signed language > > *individual language* (3.1.3) having the visual-spatial *language > modality* (3.5.1) as basic modality > > Note 1 to entry: Usually “sign language” appears as part of the name of > the respective individual language. > > EXAMPLE: ASL (American Sign Language); ) > > > > signed language modality > > NOT: sign language > > visual-spatial *language modality* (3.5.1) that uses a combination of > hand shapes, palm orientation and movement of the hand, arm or body, and > facial expression > > > > _______________________________________________ > Ietf-languages mailing list > Ietf-languages@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages >
- Re: [Ietf-languages] language identifiers for sig… Doug Ewell
- Re: [Ietf-languages] [EXTERNAL] Re: language iden… Peter Constable
- Re: [Ietf-languages] [EXTERNAL] Re: language iden… John Cowan
- Re: [Ietf-languages] [EXTERNAL] Re: language iden… Fourney, David
- Re: [Ietf-languages] [EXTERNAL] Re: language iden… Mark Davis ☕️
- Re: [Ietf-languages] [EXTERNAL] Re: language iden… John Cowan
- Re: [Ietf-languages] [EXTERNAL] Re: language iden… John Cowan
- Re: [Ietf-languages] [EXTERNAL] Re: language iden… Doug Ewell
- Re: [Ietf-languages] [EXTERNAL] Re: language iden… Doug Ewell
- Re: [Ietf-languages] [EXTERNAL] Re: language iden… Peter Constable
- Re: [Ietf-languages] [EXTERNAL] Re: language iden… Peter Constable
- Re: [Ietf-languages] [EXTERNAL] Re: language iden… Peter Constable
- Re: [Ietf-languages] [EXTERNAL] Re: language iden… Peter Constable
- Re: [Ietf-languages] [EXTERNAL] Re: language iden… Shawn Steele
- Re: [Ietf-languages] [EXTERNAL] Re: language iden… Peter Constable
- Re: [Ietf-languages] [EXTERNAL] Re: language iden… Doug Ewell
- Re: [Ietf-languages] [EXTERNAL] Re: language iden… Shawn Steele
- Re: [Ietf-languages] [EXTERNAL] Re: language iden… Peter Constable
- Re: [Ietf-languages] [EXTERNAL] Re: language iden… Doug Ewell
- Re: [Ietf-languages] [EXTERNAL] Re: language iden… drude
- Re: [Ietf-languages] [EXTERNAL] Re: language iden… Shawn Steele
- Re: [Ietf-languages] language identifiers for sig… Doug Ewell
- Re: [Ietf-languages] [EXTERNAL] Re: language iden… John Cowan
- Re: [Ietf-languages] [EXTERNAL] Re: language iden… David Starner
- Re: [Ietf-languages] [EXTERNAL] Re: language iden… John Cowan
- Re: [Ietf-languages] [EXTERNAL] Re: language iden… Doug Ewell
- Re: [Ietf-languages] [EXTERNAL] Re: language iden… John Cowan
- Re: [Ietf-languages] [EXTERNAL] Re: language iden… David Starner
- Re: [Ietf-languages] [EXTERNAL] Re: language iden… Phake Nick
- Re: [Ietf-languages] [EXTERNAL] Re: language iden… David Starner
- [Ietf-languages] FW: [EXTERNAL] Re: language iden… Sebastian Drude (personal)
- [Ietf-languages] FW: [EXTERNAL] Re: language iden… Sebastian Drude (personal)
- Re: [Ietf-languages] [EXTERNAL] Re: language iden… John Cowan
- Re: [Ietf-languages] [EXTERNAL] Re: language iden… Sebastian Drude (personal)