RE: delegating (portions of) ietf list disciplinary process
"Nick Staff" <nick.staff@comcast.net> Fri, 30 September 2005 01:00 UTC
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From: Nick Staff <nick.staff@comcast.net>
To: 'Theodore Ts'o' <tytso@mit.edu>
Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 18:00:18 -0700
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Cc: ietf@ietf.org
Subject: RE: delegating (portions of) ietf list disciplinary process
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> From: Theodore Ts'o [mailto:tytso@mit.edu] > Ted- Sorry for taking so long to respond - I wanted to give some thought to your questions before replying (comments in-line) > On Tue, Sep 27, 2005 at 06:47:36PM -0700, Nick Staff wrote: > > > 2. An IETF "netiquette" committee, to offload list banning > > > procedures from the IESG. > > > > I'm a big fan of the netiquette committee. I'd like to > suggest that > > volunteers be allowed to "throw their names into the hat" and that > > members be selected blindly from that pool. This would of course > > avoid any stacking or favoritism, but we would need a > "qualifier" that > > prevented interlopers from submitting their name. Though I hate to > > suggest it as it would exclude me from selection, having > attended an > > IETF meeting in the last x years could possibly be a good filter. > > Maybe. I see two potential problems: > > 1) Serving on this committee is going to be no fun at all. > Getting qualified people to sign up for what will only be > seen as a sh*t job is going to be difficult. I figure if Brian was able to get multiple volunteers for the IESG scribe position (of which I was one), then this should be a cakewalk ;) > And how do you > exclude certain known > (repeat) troublemakers from throwing their hat into the ring? > Or maybe you don't, but then if they get selected, they > would then have the opportunity to practice their own unique > form of DOS on the netiquette committee? > Here are some general design points I've been thinking about to help prevent the DOS you speak of as well as some other pitfalls: 1. 7 or 9 member committee 2. Members selected blindly from pool of volunteers *Let's not forget that no matter who you are, there is someone out there who thinks you're a troublemaker, that you're dumb, mean, etc. This is why it's open to all volunteers, to prevent the tainting of the committee and the stacking towards one point of view.* 3. Majority can close discussion and force vote 3a. Unanimous minority can stay vote for max of 2 days 4. Verdicts are made up of 2 separate votes 4a. In the first vote, the committee members vote whether to sustain or refute the petitioners claim. 4b. In the second vote (which immediately follows the first) the members vote on the punishment. One of the choices MUST always be to issue a warning. The other choices will vary depending on the petition. 4bb. Anyone who is issued 3 warnings in less that a years time, on subsequent "punishment" votes there MUST NOT be the choice to issue a warning. This will be for a period of 1 year beginning on the day their third warning was issued. 4c. Note that when a petition is sustained the committee votes on a PUNISHMENT FOR THE ACCUSED, and when a petition is refuted the committee votes on a PUNISHMENT FOR THE ACCUSER. This should help curtail frivolity. 5. Any sentence suspending someone's posting rights due to abusive/off-topic posts is required to pass with no greater than 1 dissenter. This is to enforce the idea that if there can be sensible disagreement about whether a post's off-topic, then it's too subjective for such a serious punishment. 5a. When 2 voting choices differ only on length of time, then their votes may be added together to reach the needed majority - however in those cases the shorter of the two sentences MUST be imposed. For example if 6 members vote for a 1 year ban and 2 vote for 30 days (with 1 voting for a warning) then even though there is not sufficient majority for a ban, the six votes and the two votes can be added together which means the ban will pass - however it can only be a 30 day ban and can never be the greater of the two. 6. In all cases the dissenting minority is allowed to publish their dissention along-side the majority verdict (in fact, one MUST NOT ever be stored, displayed, or considered without the other. > 2) Unless discussion of the decisions of the netiquette > committee, during the committee is considering a request, and > after the committee has rendered a decision, is ruled out of > scope, it's not going to help the very long discussions such > as this one which plague the IETF list. > In the worst case, we can assume that the mailing list abuser > will immediately appeal any decision of the netiquette > committee, which means that after inventing this entire > mechanism, it may not have any effect other than prolonging the agony. I know personally, if I feel a process is fair, then even if I hate the decision I can accept it and move on. That's another reason why I think it should be an unmanipulated membership. I also think the dissenting opinion will help here. Sometimes just hearing someone agree with you is enough to calm the whole situation down and give someone a sense of justice or understanding - even if the majority verdict is against them. thanks, Nick _______________________________________________ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
- RE: [dean@av8.com: Mismanagement of the DNSOP lis… Nick Staff
- RE: [dnsop] [dean@av8.com: Mismanagement of the D… Hallam-Baker, Phillip
- Re: delegating (portions of) ietf list disciplina… Marshall Eubanks
- Re: delegating (portions of) ietf list disciplina… Brian E Carpenter
- [dean@av8.com: Mismanagement of the DNSOP list] David Kessens
- RE: [dean@av8.com: Mismanagement of the DNSOP lis… Nicholas Staff
- Re: [dean@av8.com: Mismanagement of the DNSOP lis… Steven M. Bellovin
- RE: [dean@av8.com: Mismanagement of the DNSOP lis… Nicholas Staff
- Re: [dean@av8.com: Mismanagement of the DNSOP lis… Dean Anderson
- Re: [dnsop] [dean@av8.com: Mismanagement of the D… Dean Anderson
- RE: [dean@av8.com: Mismanagement of the DNSOP lis… bill
- RE: [dean@av8.com: Mismanagement of the DNSOP lis… Nick Staff
- Re: [dean@av8.com: Mismanagement of the DNSOP lis… David Kessens
- Re: [dean@av8.com: Mismanagement of the DNSOP lis… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [dnsop] [dean@av8.com: Mismanagement of the D… Tim Bray
- RE: [dean@av8.com: Mismanagement of the DNSOP lis… Nick Staff
- Re: [dean@av8.com: Mismanagement of the DNSOP lis… Dave Crocker
- RE: [dnsop] [dean@av8.com: Mismanagement of the D… Hallam-Baker, Phillip
- Re: [dean@av8.com: Mismanagement of the DNSOP lis… Dean Anderson
- RE: [dean@av8.com: Mismanagement of the DNSOP lis… Dean Anderson
- Re: [dean@av8.com: Mismanagement of the DNSOP lis… Dean Anderson
- RE: [dnsop] [dean@av8.com: Mismanagement of the D… Dean Anderson
- Re: [dean@av8.com: Mismanagement of the DNSOP lis… Steven M. Bellovin
- RE: [dean@av8.com: Mismanagement of the DNSOP lis… Nick Staff
- RE: [dean@av8.com: Mismanagement of the DNSOP lis… Wijnen, Bert (Bert)
- RE: [dean@av8.com: Mismanagement of the DNSOP lis… Nick Staff
- Re: [dean@av8.com: Mismanagement of the DNSOP lis… John Leslie
- RE: [dean@av8.com: Mismanagement of the DNSOP lis… Nick Staff
- delegating (portions of) ietf list disciplinary p… Dave Crocker
- Procedures for the IETF list (RE: [dean@av8.com: … Harald Tveit Alvestrand
- RE: [dean@av8.com: Mismanagement of the DNSOP lis… C. M. Heard
- Re: [dean@av8.com: Mismanagement of the DNSOP lis… JFC (Jefsey) Morfin
- Re: [dnsop] [dean@av8.com: Mismanagement of the D… Robert Elz
- Re: [dean@av8.com: Mismanagement of the DNSOP lis… Steven M. Bellovin
- Re: [dnsop] [dean@av8.com: Mismanagement of the D… wayne
- Re: [dnsop] [dean@av8.com: Mismanagement of the D… Bill Sommerfeld
- Re: [dnsop] [dean@av8.com: Mismanagement of the D… Stephen Sprunk
- Re: [dnsop] [dean@av8.com: Mismanagement of the D… usphoenix
- RE: [dean@av8.com: Mismanagement of the DNSOP lis… Nick Staff
- RE: delegating (portions of) ietf list disciplina… Nick Staff
- Re: [dnsop] [dean@av8.com: Mismanagement of the D… Dean Anderson
- Re: delegating (portions of) ietf list disciplina… Theodore Ts'o
- Re: [dean@av8.com: Mismanagement of the DNSOP lis… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [dnsop] [dean@av8.com: Mismanagement of the D… Dean Anderson
- Re: delegating (portions of) ietf list disciplina… Dean Anderson
- Re: [dnsop] [dean@av8.com: Mismanagement of the D… Kevin Loch
- Anycast DNS [some tech] was RE: [dnsop] [dean@av8… Dean Anderson
- Re: delegating (portions of) ietf list disciplina… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: delegating (portions of) ietf list disciplina… JFC (Jefsey) Morfin
- Re: [dean@av8.com: Mismanagement of the DNSOP lis… JFC (Jefsey) Morfin
- Re: delegating (portions of) ietf list disciplina… Michael Thomas
- Re: delegating (portions of) ietf list disciplina… Scott W Brim
- Re: [dnsop] [dean@av8.com: Mismanagement of the D… Dave Crocker
- Re: delegating (portions of) ietf list disciplina… Alexis Turner
- RE: [dnsop] [dean@av8.com: Mismanagement of the D… Thomas Gal
- RE: delegating (portions of) ietf list disciplina… Thomas Gal
- Re: [dnsop] [dean@av8.com: Mismanagement of the D… grenville armitage
- RE: [dnsop] [dean@av8.com: Mismanagement of the D… Thomas Gal
- Re: delegating (portions of) ietf list disciplina… Dave Crocker
- RE: delegating (portions of) ietf list disciplina… Nick Staff
- Minority opinions [Re: [dean@av8.com: Mismanageme… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [dnsop] [dean@av8.com: Mismanagement of the D… Dean Anderson
- RE: delegating (portions of) ietf list disciplina… Dean Anderson
- Re: Minority opinions [Re: [dean@av8.com: Mismana… JFC (Jefsey) Morfin
- RE: Minority opinions [Re: [dean@av8.com: Mismana… Thomas Gal
- RE: delegating (portions of) ietf list disciplina… Nick Staff
- Re: delegating (portions of) ietf list disciplina… grenville armitage
- Re: delegating (portions of) ietf list disciplina… Theodore Ts'o
- RE: delegating (portions of) ietf list disciplina… Nick Staff