Re: Last Call: <draft-weil-shared-transition-space-request-14.txt> (IANA Reserved IPv4 Prefix for Shared Address Space) to BCP
Martin Millnert <martin@millnert.se> Thu, 16 February 2012 16:35 UTC
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Message-ID: <1329410134.5382.72.camel@davinci.millnert.se>
Subject: Re: Last Call: <draft-weil-shared-transition-space-request-14.txt> (IANA Reserved IPv4 Prefix for Shared Address Space) to BCP
From: Martin Millnert <martin@millnert.se>
To: Chris Grundemann <cgrundemann@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2012 17:35:34 +0100
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Dear Chris, On Thu, 2012-02-16 at 08:43 -0700, Chris Grundemann wrote: > On Thu, Feb 16, 2012 at 03:43, Martin Millnert <martin@millnert.se> wrote: > > > This is 100% matched by an allocation of globally unique space from a > > RIR, shared by whoever the interested parties are. > > The IETF *need not* specify any BCP on how to improve NAT444 > > "CGN"-scale alone, because such action is attached with high risk of > > leading to a local maximum in a plot of the state of the Internet, > > rather than towards a global maximum. > > > > Citing RFC6264, "An Incremental Carrier-Grade NAT (CGN) for IPv6 > > Transition" warns: > > Carrier-Grade NAT (CGN) [CGN-REQS], also called NAT444 CGN or Large > > Scale NAT, compounds IPv4 operational problems when used alone but > > does nothing to encourage IPv4 to IPv6 transition. Deployment of > > NAT444 CGN allows ISPs to delay the transition and therefore causes > > double transition costs (once to add CGN and again to support IPv6). > > > > The draft as written, makes no effort to require the RFC6264 or > > equivalent approaches to a IPv6 transition, to the CGN deployments it > > specifies v4 address space for. All carrot, no stick. > > I believe the state of the Internet would be much more reliably > > improved by the RIRs each having (for the purpose of being able to serve > > their own users) one /10 special allocation for this purpose, which they > > can assign to multiple users upon demonstrating, under contract, they > > are transitioning to IPv6 according to 6264, or equivalent. > > > > As written there is no effort to mitigate the risk mentioned in the > > quote above, and I can't support a draft that will hurt the Internet and > > neither should you. > > Apologies for my bluntness, but this argument is a complete > misinterpretation of the facts on the ground. Taking: This draft is not about encouraging nor facilitating CGN deployments. Allocating a /10 for inside CGN addressing use _will not_ make anyone deploy CGN who would not have otherwise done so. Not allocating a /10 for inside CGN addressing use _will not_ stop anyone from deploying CGN who would have otherwise done so. + What we can do, is ensure that when those folks who must deploy CGN do so, that they break the Internet as little as possible. And _that_ is what this I-D seeks to accomplish. you seem to be of the opinion that improving the feasibility of CGN, by making it suck less, will not have any impact on potential set of networks who are deploying it, or in what way they will deploy it. You seem to want me to believe that: - there is a fixed set of networks, who are going to deploy either: - a sucky IPv4 network, or, - a less sucky IPv4 network, - it would be entirely depending on the passing of this draft, - the failure of passing of this draft somehow will exclude from these networks the possibility of obtaining non-RFC1918 space in another way, for example as I outlined The latter two points seem a bit far-fetched. I'm curious how you can possibly have sufficient knowledge to make those statements as *facts*, rather than opinions, informed as the may be (but of limited scope -- I think it unlikely you've spoken to every network on the planet). In fact, neither you nor I nor the IETF can stop operators who must deploy CGN for business continuity from doing so. I hold no such illusions. What the IETF ought to do however, IMHO, is to point them in a good direction. I don't see that happening in this document. A less-sucky IPv4-run-out access network is still a local maxima compared to the global maxima of DS. Convince me that our journey to reach the global maxima will not be negatively affected by this document, and gain my support. Kind regards, Martin
- Re: Last Call: <draft-weil-shared-transition-spac… Chris Grundemann
- Re: Last Call: <draft-weil-shared-transition-spac… Brian E Carpenter
- RE: Last Call: <draft-weil-shared-transition-spac… George, Wes
- RE: Last Call: <draft-weil-shared-transition-spac… Noel Chiappa
- RE: Last Call: <draft-weil-shared-transition-spac… George, Wes
- RE: Last Call: <draft-weil-shared-transition-spac… Jean-Francois.TremblayING
- Re: Last Call: <draft-weil-shared-transition-spac… Pete Resnick
- Re: Last Call: <draft-weil-shared-transition-spac… Noel Chiappa
- Re: Last Call: <draft-weil-shared-transition-spac… Brian E Carpenter
- Last Call: <draft-weil-shared-transition-space-re… Jinesh Doshi
- Re: Last Call: <draft-weil-shared-transition-spac… C. M. Heard
- Re: Last Call: <draft-weil-shared-transition-spac… Pete Resnick
- Re: Last Call: <draft-weil-shared-transition-spac… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Last Call: <draft-weil-shared-transition-spac… Chris Grundemann
- Re: Last Call: <draft-weil-shared-transition-spac… SM
- Re: Last Call: <draft-weil-shared-transition-spac… SM
- Re: Last Call: <draft-weil-shared-transition-spac… Chris Grundemann
- RE: Last Call: <draft-weil-shared-transition-spac… Ronald Bonica
- Re: Last Call: <draft-weil-shared-transition-spac… David Conrad
- Re: Last Call: <draft-weil-shared-transition-spac… Roger Jørgensen
- Re: Last Call: <draft-weil-shared-transition-spac… Chris Grundemann
- Re: Last Call: <draft-weil-shared-transition-spac… Mark Andrews
- RE: Last Call: <draft-weil-shared-transition-spac… SM
- RE: Last Call: <draft-weil-shared-transition-spac… John C Klensin
- Re: Last Call: <draft-weil-shared-transition-spac… Doug Barton
- Re: Last Call: <draft-weil-shared-transition-spac… Chris Donley
- Re: Last Call: <draft-weil-shared-transition-spac… John C Klensin
- Re: Last Call: <draft-weil-shared-transition-spac… Chris Grundemann
- Re: Last Call: <draft-weil-shared-transition-spac… John C Klensin
- Re: Last Call: <draft-weil-shared-transition-spac… Doug Barton
- Re: Last Call: <draft-weil-shared-transition-spac… Doug Barton
- Re: Last Call: <draft-weil-shared-transition-spac… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Last Call: <draft-weil-shared-transition-spac… Pete Resnick
- Re: Last Call: <draft-weil-shared-transition-spac… Doug Barton
- Re: Last Call: <draft-weil-shared-transition-spac… Chris Grundemann
- Re: Last Call: <draft-weil-shared-transition-spac… Doug Barton
- Re: Last Call: <draft-weil-shared-transition-spac… Måns Nilsson
- Re: Last Call: <draft-weil-shared-transition-spac… Masataka Ohta
- Re: Last Call: <draft-weil-shared-transition-spac… Cameron Byrne
- Re: Last Call: <draft-weil-shared-transition-spac… Noel Chiappa
- Re: Last Call: <draft-weil-shared-transition-spac… Randy Bush
- Re: Last Call: <draft-weil-shared-transition-spac… Pete Resnick
- Re: Last Call: <draft-weil-shared-transition-spac… Pete Resnick
- Re: Last Call: <draft-weil-shared-transition-spac… Doug Barton
- Re: Last Call: <draft-weil-shared-transition-spac… Noel Chiappa
- Re: Last Call: <draft-weil-shared-transition-spac… Doug Barton
- Re: Last Call: <draft-weil-shared-transition-spac… Noel Chiappa
- Re: Last Call: <draft-weil-shared-transition-spac… Doug Barton
- Re: Last Call: <draft-weil-shared-transition-spac… Masataka Ohta
- Re: Last Call: <draft-weil-shared-transition-spac… Måns Nilsson
- Re: Last Call: <draft-weil-shared-transition-spac… Måns Nilsson
- Re: Last Call: <draft-weil-shared-transition-spac… Roger Jørgensen
- Re: Last Call: <draft-weil-shared-transition-spac… Måns Nilsson
- Re: Last Call: <draft-weil-shared-transition-spac… John C Klensin
- Re: Last Call: <draft-weil-shared-transition-spac… Noel Chiappa
- Re: Last Call: <draft-weil-shared-transition-spac… Ralph Droms
- Re: Last Call: <draft-weil-shared-transition-spac… Chris Grundemann
- Re: Last Call: <draft-weil-shared-transition-spac… Masataka Ohta
- Re: Last Call: <draft-weil-shared-transition-spac… Doug Barton
- Re: Last Call: <draft-weil-shared-transition-spac… Randy Bush
- Re: Last Call: <draft-weil-shared-transition-spac… Noel Chiappa
- Re: Last Call: <draft-weil-shared-transition-spac… Joel jaeggli
- Re: Last Call: <draft-weil-shared-transition-spac… SM
- Re: Last Call: <draft-weil-shared-transition-spac… Måns Nilsson
- Re: Last Call: <draft-weil-shared-transition-spac… Mark Andrews
- Re: Last Call: <draft-weil-shared-transition-spac… Noel Chiappa
- Re: Last Call: <draft-weil-shared-transition-spac… Mark Andrews
- Re: Last Call: <draft-weil-shared-transition-spac… Måns Nilsson
- Re: Last Call: <draft-weil-shared-transition-spac… Noel Chiappa
- Re: Last Call: <draft-weil-shared-transition-spac… Arturo Servin
- Re: Last Call: Martin Rex
- Re: Last Call: <draft-weil-shared-transition-spac… Noel Chiappa
- CGNs and shared space allocations (was: Re: Last … John C Klensin
- Re: Last Call: <draft-weil-shared-transition-spac… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Last Call: <draft-weil-shared-transition-spac… Doug Barton
- Re: Last Call: <draft-weil-shared-transition-spac… Noel Chiappa
- Re: Last Call: <draft-weil-shared-transition-spac… David Conrad
- Re: Last Call: <draft-weil-shared-transition-spac… Martin Rex
- Re: Last Call: <draft-weil-shared-transition-spac… Doug Barton
- Re: Last Call: <draft-weil-shared-transition-spac… Roger Jørgensen
- Re: Last Call: <draft-weil-shared-transition-spac… Noel Chiappa
- Re: Last Call: <draft-weil-shared-transition-spac… Masataka Ohta
- Re: Last Call: <draft-weil-shared-transition-spac… Mark Andrews
- Re: Last Call: <draft-weil-shared-transition-spac… Cameron Byrne
- Re: Last Call: <draft-weil-shared-transition-spac… Måns Nilsson
- Re: Last Call: <draft-weil-shared-transition-spac… SM
- Re: Last Call: <draft-weil-shared-transition-spac… Doug Barton
- Re: Last Call: <draft-weil-shared-transition-spac… David Conrad
- Re: Last Call: <draft-weil-shared-transition-spac… Måns Nilsson
- Re: Last Call: <draft-weil-shared-transition-spac… Mark Andrews
- Backwards compatibility myth [Re: Last Call: <dra… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Backwards compatibility myth [Re: Last Call: … Dave CROCKER
- Re: Backwards compatibility myth [Re: Last Call: … Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Backwards compatibility myth [Re: Last Call: … Dave CROCKER
- Re: Backwards compatibility myth [Re: Last Call: … Randy Bush
- Re: Backwards compatibility myth [Re: Last Call: … Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Backwards compatibility myth [Re: Last Call: Martin Rex
- Re: Backwards compatibility myth [Re: Last Call: … Masataka Ohta
- Re: Last Call: <draft-weil-shared-transition-spac… Masataka Ohta
- Re: Last Call: <draft-weil-shared-transition-spac… Roger Jørgensen
- Re: Last Call: <draft-weil-shared-transition-spac… Roger Jørgensen
- Re: Last Call: <draft-weil-shared-transition-spac… Masataka Ohta
- Last Call: <draft-weil-shared-transition-space-re… Daryl Tanner
- Re: Backwards compatibility myth [Re: Last Call: … Dave CROCKER
- Re: Last Call: <draft-weil-shared-transition-spac… Noel Chiappa
- Re: Last Call: <draft-weil-shared-transition-spac… Donald Eastlake
- Re: Last Call: <draft-weil-shared-transition-spac… ned+ietf
- Re: Last Call: <draft-weil-shared-transition-spac… Jeff.Finkelstein
- Re: Last Call: <draft-weil-shared-transition-spac… Hector
- RE: Backwards compatibility myth [Re: Last Call: … Greg Daley
- Re: Last Call: <draft-weil-shared-transition-spac… Chris Grundemann
- Re: Last Call: <draft-weil-shared-transition-spac… Pete Resnick
- Re: Last Call: <draft-weil-shared-transition-spac… ned+ietf
- RE: Last Call: <draft-weil-shared-transition-spac… Leif Sawyer
- Re: Last Call: <draft-weil-shared-transition-spac… Pete Resnick
- Re: Last Call: <draft-weil-shared-transition-spac… ned+ietf
- Re: Last Call: <draft-weil-shared-transition-spac… Randy Bush
- RE: Last Call: <draft-weil-shared-transition-spac… Leif Sawyer
- Re: Last Call: <draft-weil-shared-transition-spac… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Last Call: <draft-weil-shared-transition-spac… Randy Bush
- RE: Last Call: <draft-weil-shared-transition-spac… Leif Sawyer
- Re: Last Call: <draft-weil-shared-transition-spac… Martin Rex
- Re: Last Call: <draft-weil-shared-transition-spac… Pete Resnick
- Re: Last Call: <draft-weil-shared-transition-spac… Masataka Ohta
- Re: Last Call: <draft-weil-shared-transition-spac… Victor Kuarsingh
- Re: Last Call: <draft-weil-shared-transition-spac… Doug Barton
- Re: Last Call: <draft-weil-shared-transition-spac… Martin Rex
- Re: Last Call: <draft-weil-shared-transition-spac… Owen DeLong
- Re: Last Call: <draft-weil-shared-transition-spac… Lea Roberts
- Re: Last Call: <draft-weil-shared-transition-spac… Martin Millnert
- Re: Last Call: <draft-weil-shared-transition-spac… Chris Grundemann
- Re: Last Call: <draft-weil-shared-transition-spac… Martin Millnert
- Re: Last Call: <draft-weil-shared-transition-spac… Nick Hilliard
- Re: Last Call: <draft-weil-shared-transition-spac… Chris Grundemann
- Re: Last Call: <draft-weil-shared-transition-spac… Martin Millnert
- Re: Last Call: <draft-weil-shared-transition-spac… Martin Millnert
- Re: Last Call: <draft-weil-shared-transition-spac… james woodyatt
- Re: Last Call: <draft-weil-shared-transition-spac… David Conrad
- Re: Last Call: <draft-weil-shared-transition-spac… Nick Hilliard