Re: in band configuration? RE: [ipfix-req] Proposed changes to draft-ietf-ipfix-reqs-00.txt
Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com> Mon, 18 February 2002 10:52 UTC
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Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 11:36:00 +0100
From: Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com>
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To: kevin.zhang@xacct.com
CC: ram.gopal@nokia.com, quittek@ccrle.nec.de, ipfix-req@net.doit.wisc.edu
Subject: Re: in band configuration? RE: [ipfix-req] Proposed changes to draft-ietf-ipfix-reqs-00.txt
References: <OPEMIKCMGFPBJOGILIMOEEEMDFAA.kevin.zhang@us.xacct.com>
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Hi Kevin, > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Benoit Claise [mailto:bclaise@cisco.com] > > Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2002 12:39 PM > > To: bclaise@cisco.com; ram.gopal@nokia.com; kevin.zhang@xacct.com > > Cc: quittek@ccrle.nec.de; ipfix-req@net.doit.wisc.edu > > Subject: RE: in band configuration? RE: [ipfix-req] Proposed changes to > > draft-ietf-ipfix-reqs-00.txt > > > > > > Hi Kevin, > > > > > > > > My comments are inserted, thanks. > > > > > > Kevin > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: majordomo listserver > > [mailto:majordomo@mil.doit.wisc.edu]On Behalf > > > > Of Benoit Claise > > > > Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2002 10:09 AM > > > > To: ram.gopal@nokia.com > > > > Cc: quittek@ccrle.nec.de; zander@fokus.gmd.de; > > > > ipfix-req@net.doit.wisc.edu > > > > Subject: Re: in band configuration? RE: [ipfix-req] Proposed > > changes to > > > > draft-ietf-ipfix-reqs-00.txt > > > > > > > > > > > > Ramg, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> If we have in-band management what is the problem? It's is a > > > > > >good choice whether > > > > > >> there is no flaw and it is good to control from one place to > > > > > >do both configure and manage the network > > > > > >> elements. If we provide proper security mechanism and ensure > > > > > >that the devices gets > > > > > >> the proper commands similar to CLI then what's the problem ? > > > > > > > > > > > >What is the problem, you're asking? > > > > > >There are actually no problems. I agree it would be the > > > > > >perfect world to have in-band configuration. But here are some > > > > > >arguments against the idea. Actually I even think a little bit > > > > > >further: the exporter configuration is out of the scope of > > > > > >this charter. > > > > > > > > > > You yourself is convinced to have single point configuration > > > > and control thr' inband > > > > > management. I can see some of your good points and issues. We > > > > are not thinking > > > > > here exporter or collector configuration split or where to > > > > place the functionality etc. > > > > > If there is a real potential problem then we should consider > > > > this as part of charter > > > > > rather than just postponing IPFIX version1 ... version 2.... etc.... > > > > > > > > But the entire issue, I don't see which problem we are trying to > > > > solve by having in-band configuration, > > > > except that it could be a nice feature to have. > > > > > > > > > > I would underscore the fact that exporters might be probes and > > midboxes that need to support more data collection functionality. > > Without some form of configuration, preferably in-band, their > > applications will be significantly limited. > > > > Obviously, we want to be able to configure an exporter. For > > example, just to configure what the template should be. > This I totally agree with you, template configuration/negotiation is the minimum the IPFIX should support. And it should be done in-band as this is an integral part of a flow export protocol. Don't make me say what I haven't said. My view is: CLI (or any other means) configuration. No inband configuration within IPFIX. And no negotiation. But again, this should be another thread. > > > > The only conclusion that this thread draw is: in or out-of-band, > > I mean CLI configuration of the exporter or the exporter, via the > > IPFIX protocol, must be able to configure the exporter. > I am not very clear about this point. Could you clarify? I assume in-band configuration refers to configuration through IPFIX control messages. Not in my mind. see my point above Regards, Benoit > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There is always a debate one can make whether to consider all > > > > the problems at forehand > > > > > or do incremental activity. I do not want to get into that. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >1. Do you want the working group to spend the time (the money) > > > > > >to developp a comon provisioning protocol, IF this is even > > > > > >possible to have an agreement on that accross the different > > > > > >vendor (probes and routers), which I think is impossible. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Flow information protocol is extensible and we cannot deal > > in defining > > > > > flows for each each and every protocols. Flow information can > > > > be exchanged between > > > > > two endpoints if they know how to interpret the fields which > > > > may be vendor specific. > > > > > > > > The information model must be extensible. Agreed, but this is a > > > > different issue than inband > > > > configuration. > > > > BTW, In Ganesh and I's draft, the collector will be able to > > > > decode a template, even if it doesn't know > > > > anything about some specific fields. > > > > > > > > > > Through template negotiation/acknowledgement, the correct > > context can be set at the IPFIX end-points. This will ensure > > correct interpretation of received data by the collector. The > > periodic template refreshing scheme is less robust as losses of > > the template information will put the collector on hold. For > > some applications that require real-time information collection, > > this means the flow information will be delayed at least another > > refreshing cycle. > > > > This is not correct but I would come back on that in other thread, later. > > Negotation is something else that the group will have to find a > > rough consensus on.. > > I propose to just concentrate on one issue at the time, if we > > want to be efficient: in or out-of-band configuration. No > > worries, the thread for negotation would follow! > > > Agree > > > Regards, Benoit. > > > > > > > > The CRANE protocol > > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-kzhang-crane-protocol-02 > > .txt uses template negotiation to achieve flexibility and > > extensibility of flow information export. Very little contraints > > are imposed on what can be exported. The template negotiation > > typically happens once during set-up to allow the IPFIX > > end-points to sync. on a set of templates. The actual flow > > information is transfered in its native form accompanied by a > > template ID. I believe this is a nicer approach. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > With SNMP also every protocol defines the MIB and uses SNMP to > > > > exchange the > > > > > information. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Typically, Management protocols are provides mechanisms how to > > > > exchange and not what to exchange. > > > > > The latter thing is more addressed by MIB which is a generic to > > > > represent attributes which are to > > > > > be managed. > > > > > > > > Agreed. I don't recall writing something which goes against that > > > > principle. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So in principle we have MIB and management protocol two are > > > > logically separate functional entities. > > > > > > > > Same remark > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ok,its a matter of time and design team effort to put that, > > > > we should not leave any items > > > > > which are essential candidates. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >2. What would happen with proprietary features, which most > > > > > >likely will not be part of the IPFIX provisioning protocol. So > > > > > >anyway we will have to use a different way of provisioning the > > > > > >device, like CLI for example, next to IPFIX. This will bypass > > > > > >the use of IPFIX provisioning protocol. > > > > > > > > > > > See my previous comments. > > > > > > > > > > >4. SNMP is widely used. Why? because the S stands for simple. > > > > > >And now, along the time, it has been evolving because there > > > > > >are new needs. > > > > > >I would like to start with something Simple, that > > everybody agrees on. > > > > > >And if there is a need for in-band configuration, then we can > > > > > >think of IPFIX2. > > > > > >Why trying to have an ISO standard from version 1? ;) > > > > > >You can give me a long list of nice idea about in-band > > > > > >configuration that I'm sure I would love to have in a perfect > > > > > >world but let's start with something Simple. > > > > > >Don't forget that simplicity is the key for interoperability. > > > > > >If not yet convinced: have you already compared Snmp and CMIP? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I agree that we start with simple, that does not mean that we > > > > should complete > > > > > in hurry without addressing the other issues. > > > > > > > > > > My advice is that be patient and cool when you reply. What i > > > > asked is more of > > > > > clarification but your reply is not on those lines. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >6. IPFIX stands for Flow Information eXport. So we have to > > > > > >standardize the export, not the configuration. So the > > > > > >direction:exporter -> collector and not the direction > > > > > >collector -> exporter. At least for version 1. > > > > > > > > > > We are not talking version of IPFIX in our charter and it may be > > > > > your assumption. > > > > > > > > No assumption here, I'm only trying to find a consensus. > > > > So instead of just saying NO, I'm proposing the following: > > > > if there is a really a need (a real potential problem, according > > > > to your own words), it's time to give > > > > your technical arguments. > > > > If not, let's investigate this nice-to-have feature later, maybe > > > > in version 2. > > > > > > > > Regards, Benoit > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Help mailto:majordomo@net.doit.wisc.edu and say "help" in > > > > message body > > > > Unsubscribe mailto:majordomo@net.doit.wisc.edu and say > > > > "unsubscribe ipfix" in message body > > > > Archive http://ipfix.doit.wisc.edu/archive/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- Help mailto:majordomo@net.doit.wisc.edu and say "help" in message body Unsubscribe mailto:majordomo@net.doit.wisc.edu and say "unsubscribe ipfix" in message body Archive http://ipfix.doit.wisc.edu/archive/
- in band configuration? RE: [ipfix-req] Proposed c… Benoit Claise
- Re: in band configuration? RE: [ipfix-req] Propos… calato
- RE: in band configuration? RE: [ipfix-req] Propos… ram.gopal
- RE: in band configuration? RE: [ipfix-req] Propos… ram.gopal
- Re: in band configuration? RE: [ipfix-req] Propos… Benoit Claise
- RE: in band configuration? RE: [ipfix-req] Propos… Kevin Zhang
- RE: in band configuration? RE: [ipfix-req] Propos… Benoit Claise
- RE: in band configuration? RE: [ipfix-req] Propos… Kevin Zhang
- RE: in band configuration? RE: [ipfix-req] Propos… Peter Ludemann
- RE: in band configuration? RE: [ipfix-req] Propos… Juergen Quittek
- Re: in band configuration? RE: [ipfix-req] Propos… Robert Lowe
- RE: in band configuration? RE: [ipfix-req] Propos… Peter Ludemann
- RE: in band configuration? RE: [ipfix-req] Propos… Juergen Quittek
- RE: in band configuration? RE: [ipfix-req] Propos… Peter Ludemann
- Re: in band configuration? RE: [ipfix-req] Propos… Benoit Claise
- RE: in band configuration? RE: [ipfix-req] Propos… Benoit Claise
- RE: in band configuration? RE: [ipfix-req] Propos… Reinaldo Penno