Re: DRAFT minutes from Prague IPR WG meeting
"todd glassey" <tglassey@earthlink.net> Tue, 27 March 2007 21:43 UTC
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From: todd glassey <tglassey@earthlink.net>
To: Harald Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no>, ipr-wg@ietf.org
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Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 14:43:19 -0700
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Subject: Re: DRAFT minutes from Prague IPR WG meeting
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Good work Harald... Some commetary on what I think are still convoluted documents, I will keep them to BCP78 in this commentary: 0) The claim is that the process of the IETF's standardization model respects the rights of others as defined in BCP78's section 3.1, but this is in fact not true based on the other clauses in the document. In fact all rights for all uses are lost for any and all derivative works including those from Vetting and WG activities as well... So there is 'no intent or otherwise to respect any previously controlled rights" and if there were there would be a more rigorous process for donating IP to the IETF. Also there is an grating issue of "that contracts without proper consideration are void for that lack of consideration" and the contract I am referring to is the "gift of the IP to the IETF"... This is a key flaw in the IETF's process today since if the IETF refuses to publish the 'submission' there is no proper consideration for the submission itself. If it is a gift then there are tax implications for the submitter and their organization at the very least and the IETF too probably which MUST be reviewed... By the way - as noted this "consideration" may be the publishing of the document as a RFC or I-D... but without the 'appropriate consideration and its valuation' the transfer of any IP to the IETF is at best questionable. This is simple US Contract Law and is true in every major country I know of as well. Again ask Jorge for a formal opinion on this if you doubt my commentary next stop is BCP78 3.3... 1) the "Unlimited License to modify and then use without any restrictions, code submitted to the IETF as part of a standards process" which pretty obviously means that the submitter will then no longer control that code or its derivatives. See section 3.3 (a) (E) of BCP78 for more confirmation of this commentary. This clause totally eliminates any control of that IP once it is submitted to the IETF which means that the submitter retains no rights whatsoever including patentability. This is not just a (c) specific statement... all the end-user rights are transferred to the IETF ...That's right - they are all gone per this statement. In fact the caveat at the end of the Statement which excludes Patent Rights is ineffective IMHO based on the statement prior to it. ANY AND ALL USES means ANY AND ALL USES including new and derivative patents, period. Adding this new clause as a separate clause to the end of that statement makes the validity of the statement and its enforceability questionable IMHO... Bluntly the IETF and anyone who relies on their publications is free to do whatever to the code/IP submitted after that including use it for any purpose outside of the IETF Standards Process as directly noticed in (a) (E). Also again, there is the issue that the IETF's submission process should require a signature to codify this. :-) 2) Likewise BCP78's sub-section (C) of 3.3 (a) is also flawed since all works that are vetted through the process of the IETF's standards process are derivative works... for which the initial submitter retains NO RIGHTS whatsoever as far as I can tell. Those efforts belong collectively to the Sponsors and the WG Members who do that vetting and are assigned by NOTEWELL and Submission Rules to the IETF. 3) The Derivative Rights permissions under section 5.2 of BCP78 actually prevent any vetting or republishing of the work either by the IETF/ISOC or its RFC Editor, or by the WG itself. In fact these stop the standards process dead in its tracks since NO Derivative Works of any type can be made from submissions tagged as such including those defined in 3.3 (a) (E)... 4) Under the BCP78 Copyright Statement there is a clause that says: This document is subject to the rights, licenses and restrictions contained in BCP 78, and except as set forth therein, the authors retain all their rights." Unfortunately the conflicting statements of 3.3 (a) (A), (B), and (E) and those elsewhere make this (c) statement invalid IMHO. In submitting any materials for publication the individuals lose all of their rights and so this statement is void and unenforceable as far as I can tell. Again - dont take my word for it, ask Jorge. Todd ----- Original Message ----- From: "Harald Alvestrand" <harald@alvestrand.no> To: <ipr-wg@ietf.org> Sent: Tuesday, March 27, 2007 6:48 AM Subject: DRAFT minutes from Prague IPR WG meeting Thanks to Scott Bradner for compiling these minutes. I have inserted various points from the slides; if you were present (in person or via audio/jabber), please send any comment you have to the minutes as soon as you can. Harald Date: March I - agenda bashing: no changes II - outgoing rights draft anyone wish to raise issues before going to IESG Simon (on Jabber) - I sent in a review Harald: who thinks its ready for iesg - no response Brian - ok but should be reviewed on mailing list no objections in the room to send to IESG but Harald will take question to list III - matching issues to resolutions Harald reviewed issues from issues list and the resolutions 1166 Quotations from RFCs and I-Ds Resolution: Permitted 1167 Excerpt labeling Resolution: SHOULD label, format as appropriate 1168 non-code excerpts Resolution: Permitted 1169 Modified excerpts Resolution: Permitted for code, not permitted for non-code 1175 How can code be distinguished from non-code? Resolution: List of types of content + a marker mechanism – Trust maintains 1199 What license should the IETF grant to third parties on Contributions? Resolution: Unmodified excerpts for non-code, excerpt & modify for code 1212 Copyright statements in I-Ds and RFCs: Meaning? Resolution: Basically meaningless in I-Ds, relevant for RFCs 1237 Should incoming rights be published as 3978 delta or replacement? Resolution: Replacement 1238 Should secretariat ask for IPR clarification from IPR holder on 3rd party IPR disclosures Resolution: Yes. draft-narten-ipr-3979-3rd-party-fix approved in January. 1239 Understanding intent of participants Resolution: None needed. 1400 Permission to modify code: Unlimited or restrictable Resolution: Unlimited no argument that these issues should be closed Harald reviewed issues that have not been resolved 1246 Incoming rights: How much should be said about outgoing rights? Not resolved, punted to next agenda item 1273 How do we usefully define "excerpt"? San Diego: Somebody else’s problem (closed) 1282 Should multiple copyright statements be permitted in I-Ds and RFCs? Suggestion: none needed for I-D, RFC Editor matter for RFCs Need the ability to do “joint” for joint publication. Need to avoid lots of conflicting ones. 1337 Notices and Rights Required in RFC Editor Contributions Proposal: RFC Editor’s problem (+IAB) – not the WG’s issue. 1338 Notices "normally placed at the end“ (raised in conjunction with nits checker) Word “normally” was chosen to be non-nonrmative. Don’t check. 1339 Does RFC 3978 3.3.a.(E) grant third parties rights to modify source Jorge believes that license permits extraction & bugfixing. close - what is an excerpt multiple copyrights statements in ID - may need for other SDO document rfc ed specific text in incoming doc - consensus: should be removed others as on slide IV - incoming draft add phrase that says what is normative and what is not boilerplate - should it be there? Scott Bradner - yes Brian Carpenter - changes are painful but 1st set of boilerplate important Scott Bradner - do not need most of boilerplate - need 1st pp & exp date Harald - conclusion: short boilerplate - with trust ok to change John Klensin - should be in RFC and unchangeable or just a pointer Scott Bradner - how about pointer with text that says text for start of ID that summaries responsibilities of authors in light of bcp 79 Harald - how many support pointing to doc maintained by trust? consensus in favor Harald -incoming doc structure: abstract defs intro & descriptions legal stuff John Klensin - need to have incoming stable before last calling outgoing Harald - do WGLC on outgoing but say that doc will not go to IESG until incoming done to cover what -outgoing needs Ted Hardie (via Jabber) - not do IETF Last Call until incoming document finished working group last call meeting concluded _______________________________________________ Ipr-wg mailing list Ipr-wg@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipr-wg _______________________________________________ Ipr-wg mailing list Ipr-wg@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipr-wg
- DRAFT minutes from Prague IPR WG meeting Harald Alvestrand
- Re: DRAFT minutes from Prague IPR WG meeting todd glassey
- Re: DRAFT minutes from Prague IPR WG meeting todd glassey
- "Money for nothing..." - todd glassey
- Re: DRAFT minutes from Prague IPR WG meeting Harald Tveit Alvestrand