Re: Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-hinden-6man-hbh-processing-01.txt
Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> Thu, 10 June 2021 23:01 UTC
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Subject: Re: Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-hinden-6man-hbh-processing-01.txt
To: Tom Herbert <tom@herbertland.com>
Cc: Fernando Gont <fernando.gont=40edgeuno.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, "gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk" <gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk>, "ipv6@ietf.org" <ipv6@ietf.org>, "bob.hinden@gmail.com" <bob.hinden@gmail.com>
References: <162265842779.4095.2393609365780372735@ietfa.amsl.com> <E5A31CCD-104D-4B92-9730-4FCFBF191F46@gmail.com> <17adf4b21d428d051e390574e976e3f61aee33c0.camel@edgeuno.com> <CALx6S368ZavS5Ggv28XB1mW41sZML0Vv=DvBPMooFFhbWdpKUg@mail.gmail.com> <4e1c6c6a-1512-755e-a4e5-723e83b74b4c@gmail.com> <CALx6S37bPxgQWQOMSdBZoB5AmuP0FCVwgn31OFzB3fjSBnDYaQ@mail.gmail.com>
From: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <9800aee2-4206-ab04-6cf7-5f2a5de2cae2@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2021 11:01:15 +1200
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Tom, On 11-Jun-21 10:47, Tom Herbert wrote: > On Thu, Jun 10, 2021 at 3:20 PM Brian E Carpenter > <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> On 11-Jun-21 03:07, Tom Herbert wrote: >>> On Thu, Jun 10, 2021 at 12:41 AM Fernando Gont >>> <fernando.gont=40edgeuno.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote: >> ... >> <big snip> >> ... >>> If you are pursuing that path, you should also limite the overall IPv6 >>> header chain length. That;s probably even more important than limiting >>> the number of EHs or number of HbH options. >>> >>>> Fernando, >>> >>>> That limit and other pertinent ones are defined in RFC8504 section 5.3 >>>> and RFC8883. The limits in RFC8504 are specified for hosts, but it >>>> would be straightforward to apply them to routers where the behavior >>>> when a limit is exceeded would be different-- end hosts should drop >>>> packets that exceed the limit, intermediate nodes should stop parsing >>>> and forward the packet. If a node decides to drop the packet then it >>>> can send an RFC8883 ICMP error to inform the sender what the exceeded >>>> limit was. Recommended defaults can be provided for limits; e.g. in >>>> RFC8504 the limit of HBH or DestOpts is eight meaning that receivers >>>> should support up to eight options and senders should be able to send >>>> up to eight options with reasonable confidence their packets won't be >>>> dropped. A similar default could be established for length of IP >>>> header chain (for hosts this isn't immediately necessary since hosts, >>>> unlike routers, usually don't have a concept of fixed sized parsing >>>> buffer holding headers, although with hardware acceleration that limit >>>> might be more applicable to set in the host). >> >> Which all, IMHO, shows that the Internet cannot ever be assumed to be >> transparent to extension headers of any kind; either we accept that >> extensions are confined to limited domains or we need a probing process >> before using them, to determine whether they can survive the trip. >> >> Not much has changed (and it's exactly the same for IPv4 options): unusable >> across the Internet. > > Brian, > > By that same logic, IPv6 itself is unusable across the Internet since > not all Internet paths support IPv6 :-). Yes, I overstated my case a bit, but I do find that it is necessary to be realistic in our designs, so I agree with what you say below. Brian > For that matter, probably any > protocol, with the possible exception of plain TCP/IPv4 without > options, is "unusable" if the definition of usable is that there is a > 100% probability that packets of a protocol will reach their > destination. > > It seems like this is an exercise of making protocols ever more > usable-- either by fallbacks (e.g. Happy Eyeballs) as you mentioned, > but also by clarifications to the protocol requirements to elicit > practical implementation. For instance, RFC8200 allowing nodes to > completely ignore HBH options instead of requiring every single node > in the path to process was a big step in the right direction. > Specifying a reasonable default limit for the number of options that > should be processed or length of the IPv6 header chain that is > supported would be another step. Note these things won't get us to > 100% support, but they could increase reachability and hence increase > utility of the protocols. > > Tom > >> >> Brian
- Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-hinden-6m… Bob Hinden
- Re: New Version Notification for draft-hinden-6ma… Eric Vyncke (evyncke)
- Re: Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-hinde… Nick Hilliard
- Re: Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-hinde… Tom Herbert
- Re: New Version Notification for draft-hinden-6ma… Tom Herbert
- Re: Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-hinde… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Re: New Version Notification for draft-hinden… li_zhenqiang@hotmail.com
- RE: New Version Notification for draft-hinden-6ma… Pengshuping (Peng Shuping)
- Re: Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-hinde… Fernando Gont
- Re: Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-hinde… Fernando Gont
- Re: Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-hinde… Gorry Fairhurst
- Re: Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-hinde… Fernando Gont
- Re: Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-hinde… Gorry Fairhurst
- Re: Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-hinde… Tom Herbert
- Re: Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-hinde… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-hinde… Tom Herbert
- Re: Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-hinde… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-hinde… Fernando Gont
- Re: Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-hinde… Fernando Gont
- Re: Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-hinde… Tom Herbert
- Re: Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-hinde… Fernando Gont
- Re: New Version Notification for draft-hinden-6ma… Pascal Thubert (pthubert)
- Re: New Version Notification for draft-hinden-6ma… Fernando Gont
- Re: New Version Notification for draft-hinden-6ma… Tom Herbert
- Re: New Version Notification for draft-hinden-6ma… Fernando Gont
- RE: New Version Notification for draft-hinden-6ma… Pascal Thubert (pthubert)
- RE: New Version Notification for draft-hinden-6ma… Vasilenko Eduard
- Re: New Version Notification for draft-hinden-6ma… Tom Herbert
- Re: New Version Notification for draft-hinden-6ma… Nick Hilliard
- Re: New Version Notification for draft-hinden-6ma… Tom Herbert
- RE: New Version Notification for draft-hinden-6ma… Vasilenko Eduard
- Re: New Version Notification for draft-hinden-6ma… Tom Herbert
- Re: New Version Notification for draft-hinden-6ma… Fernando Gont
- RE: New Version Notification for draft-hinden-6ma… Vasilenko Eduard
- Re: New Version Notification for draft-hinden-6ma… Fred Baker