Re: [Isis-wg] draft-ginsberg-isis-l2bundles
"Acee Lindem (acee)" <acee@cisco.com> Thu, 06 August 2015 12:52 UTC
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From: "Acee Lindem (acee)" <acee@cisco.com>
To: "stephane.litkowski@orange.com" <stephane.litkowski@orange.com>, Ebben Aries <exa@fb.com>, "isis-wg@ietf.org list (isis-wg@ietf.org)" <isis-wg@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Isis-wg] draft-ginsberg-isis-l2bundles
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Date: Thu, 06 Aug 2015 12:52:52 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Isis-wg] draft-ginsberg-isis-l2bundles
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Hi Stephane, On 8/6/15, 4:01 AM, "stephane.litkowski@orange.com" <stephane.litkowski@orange.com> wrote: >Hi Acee, > >Some comments inline > >-----Original Message----- >From: Acee Lindem (acee) [mailto:acee@cisco.com] >Sent: Wednesday, August 05, 2015 19:24 >To: LITKOWSKI Stephane SCE/IBNF; Ebben Aries; isis-wg@ietf.org list >(isis-wg@ietf.org) >Subject: Re: [Isis-wg] draft-ginsberg-isis-l2bundles > >Hi Stephane, >I think the IS-IS advertisement is merely a consequence of the fact that >we are satisfying the requirement of incorporating these L2 links in the >segment routing path. >[SLI] Yes, and IMO, that's bad. I think this may have implications beyond SR but it seems there are other areas where LAGs (aka, link-bundles) have permeated into L3 (e.g., BFD - RFC 7130). >- I still have some doubt on the reason to split LAGs for TE and keeping >bundles for other protocols. >- Regarding TE, I don't really see how BW use cases can work with this, >as there may be some TE tunnels using the bundle and some using specific >link, so evaluating the remaining BW per link and for the bundle is hard. >- This "breaks" layers, IGP exposes Layer 3 topology by design, not layer >2 ... if we want to expose layer 2, that's not an issue, it's a kind of >multilayer TE approach and BGP-LS may so come in the picture and is a >good candidate to retrieve topological information. I do not want to see >IS-IS or OSPF becoming a topology discovery protocol for everything : >while it's related to the Layer 3 topology it's fine to me to keep it in >the IGP for other informations, may be we need to find another way. > > > If we limit advertisement to BGP-LS, it will have the following impact: > > 1. All routers in the IS-IS domain that use link-bundles will need >some form of BGP LS peering, either to the controller directly or through >some intermediary. >[SLI] Agree but I don't see this as a negative point, as I think most >networks running TE, already have a BGP controlplane that can be reused. If there is BGP-LS peering on all the routers, then I agree that this would work given the right local policy to specify what BGP-LS information each router advertises. Thanks, Acee > > 2. Since the link-bundle itself is an IS-IS L3 link, one would need >to correlate the information with the corresponding IS-IS link state >information (assuming not every IS-IS router advertises the entire LSDB). >[SLI] Agree there is a need of correlation, but correlation is required >in all cases (in the current proposal, we advertise some parent link >information). > >Additionally, any time the information is coming from multiple sources, >you are likely to trigger path computation more frequently. >[SLI] I would say that's implementation dependent. > > >I don’t think this added complexity warrants omitting them from the IGPs >if we do, in fact, accept link bundle adjacency steering as a requirement. > >Thanks, >Acee > > >On 8/5/15, 4:12 AM, "Isis-wg on behalf of stephane.litkowski@orange.com" ><isis-wg-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of stephane.litkowski@orange.com> >wrote: > >>Hi, >> >>Pls find some inline comments. >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: Ebben Aries [mailto:exa@fb.com] >>Sent: Wednesday, August 05, 2015 01:39 >>To: LITKOWSKI Stephane SCE/IBNF; isis-wg@ietf.org list >>(isis-wg@ietf.org) >>Subject: Re: [Isis-wg] draft-ginsberg-isis-l2bundles >> >>I see BGP-LS extensions complementing this, not necessarily as a >>replacement. >>[SLI] It's for sure an option, but my point is do we need to continue >>to add extensions to both IGP and BGP LS ? >>Moreover I still have an issue with propagating L2 informations into >>layer 3 routing protocol (not technically ... more from a design >>perspective). >>Let's say that tomorrow, you would like to advertise some L1 >>information under your layer 2 information ... ?? As we are breaking >>layers, if you want to advertise some underlay topology, I would be in >>favor to not doing it in IGP. >> >>For a use-case of a central entity learning these underlying l2 >>attributes to then do whatever you wish (impose label stacks, etc..) - >>BGP-LS is a natural fit. >>[SLI] Nothing prevents to use BGP-LS in a distributed computation model. >> >>For this to remain in the IGP, a consideration could be the propagation >>of these L2 attributes to then be included in TEDs for additional logic >>from headend nodes (network elements within the IGP domain) - e.g. >>control packet per member from a remote endpoint overriding remote >>hashing either by some policy/SLA or dynamic based off of per member >>utilization, etc.. >> >>[SLI] Even if TED was previously populated only by IGP (because there >>was nothing else), this is not the case anymore. TED is also populated >>by BGP-LS and we may be able to create also new processes to populate >>the TED. So you can imagine having your process managing LAGs to add >>those L2 TE information into the TED and then being able to export it >>through BGP-LS to other nodes through the BGP controlplane, so every >>one will have the same content in the TED. >> >> >>On 08/03/2015 07:02 AM, stephane.litkowski@orange.com wrote: >>> Hi, >>> >>> >>> >>> Thinking again about this draft, I wondering why not using BGP-LS for >>> that purpose ? >>> >>> I mean, the goal here is just to provide some topological information >>> that are not related to IGP, as you want to keep L2 bundles and so a >>> single IP link. If you want to expose the underlaying topology, you >>> may be able to do it in BGP-LS rather than adding this in the IGP as >>> the information you want to expose is not necessary for the IGP to run. >>> >>> >>> >>> Thx >>> >>> >>> >>> Orange logo >>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v1/url?u=http://www.orange.com/&k= >>> Z >>> VNjlDMF0FElm4dQtryO4A%3D%3D%0A&r=GJQFPrZyyh453ywaGV%2FvoQ%3D%3D%0A&m= >>> x >>> DbMtpjPKPQ26eNh1Ka%2FhnXOqVfqYtZ9MjolqbbcT8U%3D%0A&s=75085ca9001f9c7a >>> 2 >>> 4e6f23efb57f50f5d79a97cbadcbfe1ce65082d335dba35> >>> >>> >>> >>> *Stephane Litkowski * >>> Network Architect >>> Orange/SCE/EQUANT/IBNF/ENDD/NDE >>> >>> Orange Expert Future Networks >>> >>> phone: +33 2 23 28 49 83 >>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v1/url?u=https://monsi.sso.francet >>> e >>> lecom.fr/index.asp?target%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fclicvoice.sso.francete >>> l >>> ecom.fr%252FClicvoiceV2%252FToolBar.do%253Faction%253Ddefault%2526roo >>> t >>> service%253DSIGNATURE%2526to%253D%26%2343%3B33%25202%252023%252028%25 >>> 2 >>> 049%252083%2520&k=ZVNjlDMF0FElm4dQtryO4A%3D%3D%0A&r=GJQFPrZyyh453ywaG >>> V >>> %2FvoQ%3D%3D%0A&m=xDbMtpjPKPQ26eNh1Ka%2FhnXOqVfqYtZ9MjolqbbcT8U%3D%0A >>> & s=4490d282c20720cdbe8d3350c17a191e1762a7ea211ff404be972fddea2f62f3> >>> mobile: +33 6 37 86 97 52 >>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v1/url?u=https://monsi.sso.francet >>> e >>> lecom.fr/index.asp?target%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fclicvoice.sso.francete >>> l >>> ecom.fr%252FClicvoiceV2%252FToolBar.do%253Faction%253Ddefault%2526roo >>> t >>> service%253DSIGNATURE%2526to%253D%26%2343%3B33%25206%252037%252086%25 >>> 2 >>> 097%252052%2520&k=ZVNjlDMF0FElm4dQtryO4A%3D%3D%0A&r=GJQFPrZyyh453ywaG >>> V >>> %2FvoQ%3D%3D%0A&m=xDbMtpjPKPQ26eNh1Ka%2FhnXOqVfqYtZ9MjolqbbcT8U%3D%0A >>> & s=696fa2cd342bca61fdf5e849c8d3d76abe1075281d4218eaac873227641f9514> >>> stephane.litkowski@orange.com <mailto:stephane.litkowski@orange.com> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _____________________________________________________________________ >>> _ ___________________________________________________ >>> >>> Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations >>>confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc pas etre diffuses, >>>exploites ou copies sans autorisation. 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Si vous avez recu ce message par >>erreur, veuillez le signaler a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que >>les pieces jointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles >>d'alteration, Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete >>altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci. >> >>This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged >>information that may be protected by law; they should not be >>distributed, used or copied without authorisation. >>If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and >>delete this message and its attachments. >>As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have >>been modified, changed or falsified. >>Thank you. >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Isis-wg mailing list >>Isis-wg@ietf.org >>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg > > >__________________________________________________________________________ >_______________________________________________ > >Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations >confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc >pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez >recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler >a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages >electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration, >Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme >ou falsifie. Merci. > >This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged >information that may be protected by law; >they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation. >If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and >delete this message and its attachments. >As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have >been modified, changed or falsified. >Thank you. >
- [Isis-wg] draft-ginsberg-isis-l2bundles stephane.litkowski
- Re: [Isis-wg] draft-ginsberg-isis-l2bundles Ebben Aries
- Re: [Isis-wg] draft-ginsberg-isis-l2bundles stephane.litkowski
- Re: [Isis-wg] draft-ginsberg-isis-l2bundles Acee Lindem (acee)
- Re: [Isis-wg] draft-ginsberg-isis-l2bundles stephane.litkowski
- Re: [Isis-wg] draft-ginsberg-isis-l2bundles Acee Lindem (acee)
- Re: [Isis-wg] draft-ginsberg-isis-l2bundles stephane.litkowski
- Re: [Isis-wg] draft-ginsberg-isis-l2bundles Acee Lindem (acee)
- Re: [Isis-wg] draft-ginsberg-isis-l2bundles stephane.litkowski
- Re: [Isis-wg] draft-ginsberg-isis-l2bundles Acee Lindem (acee)
- Re: [Isis-wg] draft-ginsberg-isis-l2bundles stephane.litkowski
- Re: [Isis-wg] draft-ginsberg-isis-l2bundles Acee Lindem (acee)
- Re: [Isis-wg] draft-ginsberg-isis-l2bundles Hannes Gredler
- Re: [Isis-wg] draft-ginsberg-isis-l2bundles Ahmed Bashandy (bashandy)
- Re: [Isis-wg] draft-ginsberg-isis-l2bundles stephane.litkowski
- Re: [Isis-wg] draft-ginsberg-isis-l2bundles stephane.litkowski
- Re: [Isis-wg] draft-ginsberg-isis-l2bundles Les Ginsberg (ginsberg)
- Re: [Isis-wg] draft-ginsberg-isis-l2bundles stephane.litkowski
- Re: [Isis-wg] draft-ginsberg-isis-l2bundles Les Ginsberg (ginsberg)
- Re: [Isis-wg] draft-ginsberg-isis-l2bundles stephane.litkowski
- Re: [Isis-wg] draft-ginsberg-isis-l2bundles Hannes Gredler
- Re: [Isis-wg] draft-ginsberg-isis-l2bundles Ahmed Bashandy (bashandy)
- Re: [Isis-wg] draft-ginsberg-isis-l2bundles Ahmed Bashandy (bashandy)