Re: [jose] Adding a X509/PKIX JWK type? [WAS: issues with x5c in JWE]
Brian Campbell <bcampbell@pingidentity.com> Fri, 08 February 2013 19:44 UTC
Return-Path: <bcampbell@pingidentity.com>
X-Original-To: jose@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: jose@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AFAB821F8B81 for <jose@ietfa.amsl.com>; Fri, 8 Feb 2013 11:44:08 -0800 (PST)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -5.883
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.883 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.093, BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4]
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DkAaj6YuvB0c for <jose@ietfa.amsl.com>; Fri, 8 Feb 2013 11:44:07 -0800 (PST)
Received: from na3sys009aog125.obsmtp.com (na3sys009aog125.obsmtp.com [74.125.149.153]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E824921F8AB2 for <jose@ietf.org>; Fri, 8 Feb 2013 11:44:06 -0800 (PST)
Received: from mail-ob0-f200.google.com ([209.85.214.200]) (using TLSv1) by na3sys009aob125.postini.com ([74.125.148.12]) with SMTP ID DSNKURVVhhX2YCBHMHhdHRzaylCWScrP1Mvm@postini.com; Fri, 08 Feb 2013 11:44:07 PST
Received: by mail-ob0-f200.google.com with SMTP id un3so19861473obb.3 for <jose@ietf.org>; Fri, 08 Feb 2013 11:44:06 -0800 (PST)
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=x-received:x-received:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type:x-gm-message-state; bh=ZSHDFAGue9WPVYj5GN0BMdwa6kHxQaJHusgMWsAmYWs=; b=mLYGhDRajYNxt4P8biqYZ0ye60jYASj9uj1azInrM+pQP6UPHQBamwS44H2A78TM6g ESFeQNm8yFw6SkmTBO8iv76B0H+6VBJ/CVNDGsNbV/qNJYd3IQorvsKJzXElvShFkvN2 miZUwvRIDKouvZsRW7IV38SORWQqcqLjxtlxxezXRoWkwWTBfGQtWGigc2OkW4/rx3zR /YvoxZ3Po3yjPl9ZN3GvBC2vs3fbW+ighcUBbFqfJ4wlNcWib9cz3Q2RbS9ZifWGCbT0 cDnfmlmSRCi6uQXpJTIYxvem7cKMUPs3uDC7EAlcdY6koRGd1OFLv9cuENGr85QThUXp dslQ==
X-Received: by 10.50.53.196 with SMTP id d4mr4810283igp.88.1360352645977; Fri, 08 Feb 2013 11:44:05 -0800 (PST)
X-Received: by 10.50.53.196 with SMTP id d4mr4810266igp.88.1360352645850; Fri, 08 Feb 2013 11:44:05 -0800 (PST)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Received: by 10.64.139.8 with HTTP; Fri, 8 Feb 2013 11:43:35 -0800 (PST)
In-Reply-To: <89EBA4C7-2599-4230-9E1B-646E550DBFB8@ve7jtb.com>
References: <CA+k3eCRbkefo3M+7QK_anM+H-VQLj2b+Jvw+8EXKPnSuc4Y_7Q@mail.gmail.com> <DAD9D0F9-1889-41B8-8F87-2FC689E9397B@ve7jtb.com> <CA+k3eCQqTpiTdDwdkqFNU9UApM8H4TjjkKq+XupSQuhLkbjRsg@mail.gmail.com> <BF7E36B9C495A6468E8EC573603ED94115109840@xmb-aln-x11.cisco.com> <0BC322C1-A6C5-46B8-BC2A-3A7E000952EF@ve7jtb.com> <CA+k3eCTi1Ss2grSALqZngtnCfv8ks0xRm_uXaeA7cdngua4_VQ@mail.gmail.com> <BF7E36B9C495A6468E8EC573603ED9411510A1F3@xmb-aln-x11.cisco.com> <BF7E36B9C495A6468E8EC573603ED9411511DB49@xmb-aln-x11.cisco.com> <89EBA4C7-2599-4230-9E1B-646E550DBFB8@ve7jtb.com>
From: Brian Campbell <bcampbell@pingidentity.com>
Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2013 12:43:35 -0700
Message-ID: <CA+k3eCReyceVZAf=TSP26JM2JK0BpDOE1RkAkqBu3UWkVTbYRw@mail.gmail.com>
To: John Bradley <ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="f46d042fdeb239a6f704d53bc806"
X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQkgzXnycpqY0rznj4W6hNxXDML/zrltQcdKpoVZLpo7N8LQWf3z7Bamgh3fvHop4hy7vEl6sZ8PACxxa6/k6P6no0oxa1VJbpZxOLTYl7lmVO9x1Ot8PG8beFj/DDwmw44HoFAd
Cc: "jose@ietf.org" <jose@ietf.org>, "Matt Miller (mamille2)" <mamille2@cisco.com>
Subject: Re: [jose] Adding a X509/PKIX JWK type? [WAS: issues with x5c in JWE]
X-BeenThere: jose@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12
Precedence: list
List-Id: Javascript Object Signing and Encryption <jose.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/jose>, <mailto:jose-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/jose>
List-Post: <mailto:jose@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:jose-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/jose>, <mailto:jose-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2013 19:44:08 -0000
I also support it (though I guess that's kind of obvious huh?). On Fri, Feb 8, 2013 at 11:56 AM, John Bradley <ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com> wrote: > I agree that being able to include a x5c or reference a x5u form a JWK > allows for more consistency around key references and key use. > > I support developing an ID to discuss this. > > John B. > On 2013-02-08, at 11:47 AM, "Matt Miller (mamille2)" <mamille2@cisco.com> > wrote: > > > After some off-list discussions, a couple of us believe it would be > worthwhile to somehow wrap a PKIX certificate chain in a JSON Web Key. A > couple of us are leaning toward a new JWK type to do this. One impact, I > think, is that anywhere we currently have "x5c" (and potentially "x5t" and > "x5u") are effectively replaced by an actual JWK object. However, a few of > us have other use cases where a PKIX certificate JWK would solve some > problems. > > > > Unless there's strong objection, Brian Campbell and I are likely to > start work on a new I-D that documents our musings. > > > > > > Thoughts? > > > > - m&m > > > > Matt Miller < mamille2@cisco.com > > > Cisco Systems, Inc. > > > > On Jan 31, 2013, at 3:15 PM, Matt Miller (mamille2) <mamille2@cisco.com> > wrote: > > > >> I could also see it like the following: > >> > >> { > >> "kty":"RSA", > >> "kid":"juliet@capulet.lit", > >> "n":".....", > >> "e":"AQAB", > >> "x5u":"https://capulet.lit/juliet.crt" > >> // and/or "x5c":[....] > >> } > >> > >> Having a "X509" JWK type might solve one problem I can see having in > XMPP-E2E, but it that same problem could be solved with the above. > >> > >> Then again, I could be completely off in the weeds. > >> > >> > >> - m&m > >> > >> Matt Miller < mamille2@cisco.com > > >> Cisco Systems, Inc. > >> > >> On Jan 31, 2013, at 2:45 PM, Brian Campbell <bcampbell@pingidentity.com > > > >> wrote: > >> > >>> John and Mike beat me to it but yeah, the general idea of some kind of > X509 > >>> support in JWK has now independently come up in my world twice in as > many > >>> days. > >>> > >>> I must say that, from a general design of things perspective, it seems > like > >>> a total abomination. But maybe, just maybe, it'd be useful enough to > >>> overcome such pity objections? > >>> > >>> Though, to be fair, Matt's idea is pretty different than what John has > in > >>> mind. Getting to some level of agreement would likely be more than > just a > >>> formality. > >>> > >>> > >>> On Thu, Jan 31, 2013 at 9:54 AM, John Bradley <ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com> > wrote: > >>> > >>>> Brian and I were discussing a couple of options off the list. > >>>> > >>>> One possible thing might be to add x5c and/or x5u elements to jwk. > >>>> > >>>> In Connect we are looking at how to deal with key rollover for > signing. > >>>> > >>>> The problem with specifying a x5u is that while it is a vert chain it > is a > >>>> single cert chain, so you need to have multiple and there is no easy > way to > >>>> have the same keyid for a jwk key and a x5u key. > >>>> > >>>> My idea was to allow x5u elements in a jwk so that you can have a > single > >>>> keyid and key use that apples to both formats. > >>>> > >>>> I can see a use for x5c in jwk as well especially where it is being > sent > >>>> in band. > >>>> > >>>> So while it may sound crazy a number of us may be thinking the same > thing. > >>>> > >>>> John B. > >>>> > >>>> On 2013-01-31, at 1:42 PM, "Matt Miller (mamille2)" < > mamille2@cisco.com> > >>>> wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> On Jan 31, 2013, at 9:20 AM, Brian Campbell < > bcampbell@pingidentity.com> > >>>> wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>>> Seems to me that something like x5c would be a lot more meaningful > and > >>>>>> useful for a possible future ECDH-SS algorithm for JWE. But it > would be > >>>>>> about the encrypting party or sender's certs in that case, right? > Which > >>>>>> would be different than how it's currently being used. And that > might be > >>>>>> another argument for not having it in JWE right now. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Of course that starts to beg the "must understand headers" question > but > >>>> I > >>>>>> digress... > >>>>> > >>>>> I was starting to come to similar conclusions. > >>>>> > >>>>> This probably sounds crazy, but maybe we can pretend x.509 certs can > be > >>>> wrapped into a JSON Web Key? > >>>>> > >>>>> { > >>>>> "kty":"X509", > >>>>> "x5c": [....] > >>>>> } > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> - m&m > >>>>> > >>>>> Matt Miller < mamille2@cisco.com > > >>>>> Cisco Systems, Inc. > >>>>> > >>>>>> On Tue, Jan 29, 2013 at 8:04 PM, John Bradley <ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com> > >>>> wrote: > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> Yes for encryption (Leaving ECDH-SS aside ) the recipoient decrypts > >>>> with a > >>>>>>> secret. I would expect a kid in the header. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> I suppose they if the recipient published a x5c that the sender > used to > >>>>>>> encrypt with then you could include the x5c as a reference though a > >>>>>>> thumbprint would be simpler as the recipient is probably keeping > its > >>>>>>> private keys in a key-store of some sort. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> In any event we would minimally want to change that to > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> "The certificate containing the public key of the entity that is to > >>>>>>> decrypt the JWE MUST be the first certificate." > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Thanks Brian > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> John B. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> On 2013-01-29, at 11:08 PM, Brian Campbell < > bcampbell@pingidentity.com > >>>>> > >>>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> I just noticed a couple of things in the JWE's x5c definition that > >>>> struck > >>>>>>> me as maybe not right. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> From > >>>>>>> > >>>> > http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-jose-json-web-encryption-08#section-4.1.9 > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> "The certificate containing the public key of the entity that > encrypted > >>>>>>> the JWE MUST be the first certificate." - but it's not the public > key > >>>> of > >>>>>>> the entity that encrypted, is it? It's the public key of the entity > >>>> that > >>>>>>> will decrypt. The other entity. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> "The recipient MUST verify the certificate chain according to > [RFC5280] > >>>>>>> and reject the JWE if any validation failure occurs." - maybe I'm > >>>> missing > >>>>>>> something but why would the recipient verify it's own certificate > >>>> chain? > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> And the first hyperlink in "See Appendix B< > >>>> > http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-jose-json-web-encryption-08#appendix-B > >of > >>>> [ > >>>>>>> JWS< > >>>> > http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-jose-json-web-encryption-08#ref-JWS > >>>>> ] > >>>>>>> for an example "x5c" value" takes you to Appendix B of JWE, which > is > >>>>>>> Acknowledgements, rather than JWS as the text would suggest. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> So all those little nits could be fixed. But maybe it'd be better > to > >>>> just > >>>>>>> remove x5c from JWE all together? As Richard pointed out > previously, > >>>>>>> http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/jose/current/msg01434.html, > >>>> there's > >>>>>>> really no point in sending a whole chain to help the recipient > >>>> identify its > >>>>>>> own key. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>>> jose mailing list > >>>>>>> jose@ietf.org > >>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/jose > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>> jose mailing list > >>>>>> jose@ietf.org > >>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/jose > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> jose mailing list > >> jose@ietf.org > >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/jose > > > > _______________________________________________ > > jose mailing list > > jose@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/jose > >
- [jose] issues with x5c in JWE Brian Campbell
- Re: [jose] issues with x5c in JWE John Bradley
- Re: [jose] issues with x5c in JWE Brian Campbell
- Re: [jose] issues with x5c in JWE Matt Miller (mamille2)
- Re: [jose] issues with x5c in JWE Mike Jones
- Re: [jose] issues with x5c in JWE John Bradley
- Re: [jose] issues with x5c in JWE Brian Campbell
- Re: [jose] issues with x5c in JWE Matt Miller (mamille2)
- [jose] Adding a X509/PKIX JWK type? [WAS: issues … Matt Miller (mamille2)
- Re: [jose] Adding a X509/PKIX JWK type? [WAS: iss… John Bradley
- Re: [jose] Adding a X509/PKIX JWK type? [WAS: iss… Brian Campbell
- Re: [jose] Adding a X509/PKIX JWK type? [WAS: iss… Salvatore D'Agostino
- Re: [jose] Adding a X509/PKIX JWK type? [WAS: iss… Peter Saint-Andre
- Re: [jose] Adding a X509/PKIX JWK type? [WAS: iss… Brian Campbell
- Re: [jose] Adding a X509/PKIX JWK type? [WAS: iss… Richard Barnes
- Re: [jose] Adding a X509/PKIX JWK type? [WAS: iss… John Bradley
- Re: [jose] Adding a X509/PKIX JWK type? [WAS: iss… Richard Barnes
- Re: [jose] Adding a X509/PKIX JWK type? [WAS: iss… Matt Miller (mamille2)
- Re: [jose] Adding a X509/PKIX JWK type? [WAS: iss… Brian Campbell