Re: [Lsr] [Idr] [GROW] IGP Monitoring Protocol

Hi Yingzhen & OSPF-GT authors,

UP front I must state that anything is better to export IGP information
from routers to interested nodes than using BGP for it.

But to propose using OSPF to transport ISIS seems pretty brave :) I must
admit it !

With that I have few questions to the proposal - assuming the use case is
to distribute links state info in a *point to point* fashion:

A) What is the advantage - if any - to use a new OSPF instance/process to
send link state data over a unicast session to a controller ?

B) The draft is pretty silent on the nature of such a p2p session. Please
be explicit if this is TCP, QUIC or what ?

C) The draft is pretty silent on types of authentication for such sessions.
Security considerations are pretty weak in that respect as well.

   The security considerations for OSPF-GT will be similar to those for
   OSPFv2 [RFC2328] and OSPFv3 [RFC5340].  However, since OSPF-GT is not
   used to update OSPF routing, the consequences of attacks will be
   dependent on advertised non-routing information.

I would actually argue that security considerations of p2p remote neighbors
are actually quite different from security considerations of flooding data.

Along the same lines security is not about protecting your routing ... it
is much more about protecting the entire network by exposing critical
information externally to non authorized parties.

D) Are there any PUB-SUB options possible for OSPF-GT ?

E) Is there any filtering possible for OSPF-GT ?

F) Are you envisioning use of OSPF-GT proxies and if so are you planning to
add this to the document ?

G) How are you going to address Receivers which do not support OSPF-GT
parser ?

H) As you know many operators are attracted to BGP-LS based on the fact
that it offers the same view of information irrespective of what is the
protocol producing the data. Is there some thought on such normalization in
the OSPF-GT proposal ?

I) What's the take of OSPF-GT draft authors on the YANG model in respect of
using it for normalization of exported data ?

To summarize IMHO we should not stretch routing protocols be it OSPF, ISIS
or BGP to be messengers of link state data running and to artificially
force them to run in a point-to-point model between router and controller.

Kind regards,
Robert

On Sun, Jul 10, 2022 at 7:04 AM Yingzhen Qu <yingzhen.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> Since we’re discussing possible solutions, I’d like to bring up the draft:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-lsr-ospf-transport-instance/
>
> We just submitted a new version. The name of the document is changed to
> “OSPF-GT (Generalized Transport)”, and a use case is added to use OSPF-GT
> as a possible replacement of BGP-LS.
>
> Note: OSPF-GT is not traditional OSPF, and it’s not used to calculate
> routes. It uses the reachability info calculated by routing protocols,
> OSPF, ISIS or static routing etc.. It provides mechanisms to advertise
> non-routing information, and remote neighbor is supported.
>
> Reviews and comments are welcome.
>
>
> Thanks,
> Yingzhen
>
> On Jul 9, 2022, at 5:33 PM, Gyan Mishra <hayabusagsm@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> During the interim meeting we should keep it open to discuss all possible
> alternatives to BGP-LS.
>
> Thanks
>
> Gyan
>
> On Sat, Jul 9, 2022 at 4:45 PM Susan Hares <shares@ndzh.com> wrote:
>
>> Jeff:
>>
>>
>>
>> An interim sounds like a good plan.
>>
>>
>>
>> [IDR-chair hat]
>>
>> Alvaro has indicated that since all of the proposal received on the IDR
>> list are new protocol proposals,
>>
>>    - Capturing IDR’s input on BGP-LS problems and potential solutions is
>>    appropriate for IDR as BGP-LS home.
>>    - Refining any potential non-BGP solutions is outside of the scope of
>>    IDR.
>>
>>
>>
>> [IDR-chair hat off]
>>
>> [rtgwg WG member]
>>
>> I’d love to attend an interim on this topic.
>>
>>
>>
>> Sue Hares
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Jeff Tantsura <jefftant.ietf@gmail.com>
>> *Sent:* Saturday, July 9, 2022 3:40 PM
>> *To:* Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
>> *Cc:* Acee Lindem (acee) <acee@cisco.com>; lsr <lsr@ietf.org>;
>> idr@ietf.org; Susan Hares <shares@ndzh.com>; grow@ietf.org grow@ietf.org
>> <grow@ietf.org>
>> *Subject:* Re: [Idr] [Lsr] IGP Monitoring Protocol
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Speaking as RTGWG chair:
>>
>>
>>
>> Robert - I don’t think we’d have enough time to accommodate a good
>> discussion during IETF114 (we got only 1 slot), however would be happy to
>> provide a platform for an interim.
>>
>> The topic is important and personally (being a very large BGP-LS user)
>> I’d like to see it progressing.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Jeff
>>
>>
>>
>> On Jul 8, 2022, at 14:44, Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net> wrote:
>>
>> 
>>
>> Hi Acee,
>>
>>
>>
>> Yes, by all means input from the operator's community is needed. It can
>> be collected through LSR WG, IDR WG or GROW WG. RTGWG could also
>> contribute. We have already seen input from some operators and their
>> opinion on adding and distributing more and more link state protocol and
>> topology data in BGP. More such input is very welcome.
>>
>>
>>
>> And to your point about RFC9086 - I see nothing wrong in keeping BGP
>> information in BGP. So IGP Monitoring Protocol does not target to shut down
>> BGP-LS. It only aims to remove 100% of non BGP sourced information from it.
>>
>>
>>
>> Controllers which today listen to BGP-LS need a number of information
>> sources and that spread will only keep increasing as more inputs are
>> becoming necessary for its computations.
>>
>>
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Robert.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Jul 8, 2022 at 11:32 PM Acee Lindem (acee) <acee@cisco.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Robert,
>>
>>
>>
>> *From: *Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
>> *Date: *Friday, July 8, 2022 at 4:36 PM
>> *To: *Acee Lindem <acee@cisco.com>
>> *Cc: *lsr <lsr@ietf.org>, IDR List <idr@ietf.org>, Susan Hares <
>> shares@ndzh.com>
>> *Subject: *Re: [Lsr] IGP Monitoring Protocol
>>
>>
>>
>> Hi Acee,
>>
>>
>>
>> Thank you. I was not planning to present it in the upcoming IETF.
>>
>>
>>
>> > Let’s see how many stakeholders actually want to this protocol - then
>> we can talk about a WG home.
>>
>>
>>
>> An alternative approach could be to see how many stakeholders do not want
>> to further (for no good reason) to trash BGP. That to me would be in this
>> specific case a much better gauge.
>>
>>
>>
>> In that case, it seems to me that this discussion should be relegated to
>> IDR. Note that there is already non-IGP information transported in BGP-LS,
>> e.g., Egress Peer Engineering (https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc9086/).
>> I implemented this on our data center routers (NXOS) years and it is solely
>> BGP specific.
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Acee
>>
>>
>>
>> Kind regards,
>>
>> Robert
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Jul 8, 2022 at 9:54 PM Acee Lindem (acee) <acee@cisco.com> wrote:
>>
>> Speaking as WG chair:
>>
>>
>>
>> *From: *Lsr <lsr-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Robert Raszuk <
>> robert@raszuk.net>
>> *Date: *Friday, July 8, 2022 at 3:21 PM
>> *To: *lsr <lsr@ietf.org>
>> *Cc: *IDR List <idr@ietf.org>, Susan Hares <shares@ndzh.com>
>> *Subject: *[Lsr] IGP Monitoring Protocol
>>
>>
>>
>> Dear LSR WG,
>>
>>
>>
>> Based on ongoing discussion in respect to the future of BGP-LS I
>> committed myself to put together an alternate proposal.
>>
>>
>>
>> The main goal is not to just publish a -00 version of the draft using
>> different encapsulation. The goal is to make a useful tool which can help
>> to export link state information from network elements as well as assist in
>> network observability.
>>
>>
>>
>> The IGP Monitoring Protocol (IMP) draft has been posted and should be
>> available at:
>>
>>
>>
>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-raszuk-lsr-imp/
>>
>>
>>
>> One of the key points I wanted to accomplish was full backwards
>> compatibility with TLVs defined for BGP-LS. In parallel other formats
>> (optional) are also supported.
>>
>>
>>
>> The PUB-SUB nature or FILTERING capabilities are in the spec however as
>> noted in the deployment section there is no expectation that this should be
>> supported directly on routers. Concept of Producer's Proxies has been
>> introduced to support this added functionality as well as provide fan-out
>> (analogy to BGP route reflectors).
>>
>>
>>
>> I encourage everyone interested to take a look and provide comments. At
>> this point this document is nothing more than my individual submission.
>> Offline I have had few conversations with both operators and vendors
>> expressing some level of interest in this work. How we proceed further (if
>> at all :) depends on WG feedback.
>>
>>
>>
>> Kind regards,
>>
>> Robert.
>>
>>
>>
>> PS, I do believe this work belongs in LSR WG pretty squerly.
>>
>>
>>
>> Let’s see how many stakeholders actually want to this protocol - then we
>> can talk about a WG home.  By stakeholders, I mean operators and vendors
>> who are committed to implementing and deploying it - not simply those who
>> you are able to enlist as co-authors. Note that our IETF 114 LSR agenda is
>> full (with multiple agenda items not making the cut).
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Acee
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>> GROW@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/grow
>>
> --
>
> <http://www.verizon.com/>
> *Gyan Mishra*
> *Network Solutions A**rchitect *
> *Email gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com <gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com>*
>
>
> *M 301 502-1347*
>
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