Re: [manet] MANET meeting at IETF85

Dear Cedric,

On Oct 16, 2012, at 6:58 PM, Cedric-2 LAVENU wrote:

Dear Cédric,

I'm not sure all this discussions really make sense :

> An LLN network is definitely a type of MANET according to what Adrian said (he has been quoted several times in the past mails). One of the fileds LOADng is intended to be used are AMI PLC networks with low bandwidth (few kbps in the harshest environments), but can be extensible to other types of MANETs.

And regarding your comment about experience with LOADng :

> LOADng is a protocol for which several running implementations exist and interoperate as shown in draft : http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-lavenu-lln-loadng-interoperability-report-02
> In addition, LOAD (the previous version) was successfully run in a 2000 PLC node trial.

I think that all the facts are on the table to say that LOAD would be suitable for MANETs (LLNs being a subset of MANETs). In addition field and lab experience does exist and demonstrated that LOADng can be very efficient.

JP> Note that an interop document is certainly extremely useful but cannot be used as a proof that a protocol "works" especially at scale.
I think that Cedric was looking for performance numbers, under which conditions, etc …
That being, all I was saying on my side, was that if indeed a protocol is designed to cover LLNs, then it should be ran by the WG in charge
of LLNs. As you pointed out, AMI PLC network are definitely highly constrained LLNs, with flappy/lossy links, low bandwidth, …

Regards.

JP.

Regards,
Cédric
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Cédric LAVENU
Research Engineer
EDF – R&D
MIRE Department
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De :        c.chauvenet@watteco.com<mailto:c.chauvenet@watteco.com>
A :        ulrich@herberg.name<mailto:ulrich@herberg.name>, ietf@thomasclausen.org<mailto:ietf@thomasclausen.org>
Cc :        sratliff@cisco.com<mailto:sratliff@cisco.com>, Chris.Dearlove@baesystems.com<mailto:Chris.Dearlove@baesystems.com>, manet@ietf.org<mailto:manet@ietf.org>, boberry@cisco.com<mailto:boberry@cisco.com>
Date :        15/10/2012 18:01
Objet :        Re: [manet] MANET meeting at IETF85
Envoyé par :        manet-bounces@ietf.org<mailto:manet-bounces@ietf.org>
________________________________

Hi ulrich and Thomas

Le 15 oct. 2012 à 17:22, Ulrich Herberg a écrit :

Hi JP,

On Sun, Oct 14, 2012 at 11:28 PM, JP Vasseur (jvasseur) <jvasseur@cisco.com<mailto:jvasseur@cisco.com>> wrote:
[...]

JP> Here we do not disagree at all. I am not saying that reactive protocols are not appropriate in a number of scenario. All I am saying is that *if* you intent to specify
a reactive routing protocol for LLNs, knowing the years of intense work and efforts of the ROLL WG, then it should be discussed with a wider audience.

I agree. But that's not we are intending to do. We intent to produce a reactive protocol for MANETs, which is requested by the MANET charter. LOADng is a protocol that covers all the use cases of MANETs, one of which being LLNs.
And yes, the introduction and title of the draft needs to be changed

On the other
hand, if your explicitly exclude LLNs from your protocol in your protocol, it is no longer required to involve the ROLL WG. The objective is simply to avoid WG charter
overlap but more importantly try to benefit from the benefit of experts in the area of LLNs to build a good protocol for the Internet.

I am personally against removing to mention a use case where as a matter of fact the protocol is used in (as *one* use-case out of many).

Citing Adrian from the last MANET meeting:
Adrian Farrell: If you were to pick up a reactive protocol for MANET, you would be in charter. If you pick up a protocol and your main use case is for LLNs, you have diverged from charter. Main use case is delicate thing to talk about. It is clear that some if not all LLNs are MANET. Not all MANETs are LLNs. So you need to be producing a single reactive protocol for MANETs, not for *some* MANETs. You need to be clear that the protocol you work on is applicable across all MANETs. If that picks up some LLNs across the way, no big deal, but it should not be main use case. Look at all use cases for MANETs and make sure you address all of those.

You'll not the "If that picks up some LLNs across the way, no big deal, but it should not be main use case".

That is why I asked in a previous mail the nature of LOADng deployments you were talking about.
I cannot find any material on this.
If they are LLN, then it seems in disagreement with what Adrian suggest.

This is exactly what we intend to do.

It was also agreed at the last MANET meeting that if LOADng was to be considered for MANET, it needs to de-emphasize LLNs (which I have not heard anybody disagree with so far). So I don't understand what we are even discussing here.

JP> No, this your recollection of the discussion. "less-focussed" or "de-emphasize" was I think your interpretation. Mine was "not referring to LLNs" at all.

I sincerely suggest to wait until you read the new revision, as this discussion is hypothetical without that.

Agree that the new version should be a good point of discussion.

Best,

Cédric.

Otherwise, it should be reviewed by both WGs (to be discussed between chairs and AD).

Best
Ulrich
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