Re: [martini] Proposed work split:tackletelephone-numberregistration first

[<[e-mail]>]

Hi Spencer,

I have seen you request on the sip-ops list where you noted that MARTINI is not getting inputs from other operators (than CableLabs). I'm actually representing a fixed and mobile operator (France Telecom - Orange) and as you can guess from my previous posts we support a REGISTER-based solution and believe that a solution restricted to Tel URIs would be of limited interest.

/BC



> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : [e-mail] 
> [mailto:[e-mail]] De la part de Spencer Dawkins
> Envoyé : jeudi 28 janvier 2010 22:59
> À : Brian Lindsay; Eric Burger; Dean Willis
> Cc : [e-mail]
> Objet : Re: [martini] Proposed work 
> split:tackletelephone-numberregistration first
> 
> Hi, Brian,
> 
> Thanks for the quick feedback. I'm mostly asking if I'm 
> reading where we are going correctly (I GOTTA get the draft 
> minutes out from that call!).
> 
> This is kind of twisty-little-passages-all-alike/different 
> (for those of you that remember the "adventure" game in the 
> early 1980s), but I'm trying to follow the chain. Where I 
> thought we were, was that we didn't have a coherent story for 
> how we get a call from outside the service provider, to the 
> service provider, to the SIP-PBX, and I've heard a bunch of 
> smart guys talk for a long time on a number of occasions 
> about how that might work/not work, usually ending with "but 
> if this was limited to E.164 numbers, a lot of these problems 
> would go away".
> 
> So I'm trying to laces comments from the call that I remember 
> together, and see what the resulting tapestry looks like.
> 
> Tell you what. I'll go work on draft minutes and stop typing 
> e-mail, and we'll see if that works better :D
> 
> Spencer
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Brian Lindsay" <[e-mail]>
> To: "Spencer Dawkins" <[e-mail]>; "Eric Burger" 
> <[e-mail]>; "Dean Willis" 
> <[e-mail]>
> Cc: <[e-mail]>
> Sent: Thursday, January 28, 2010 3:48 PM
> Subject: RE: [martini] Proposed work split: 
> tackletelephone-numberregistration first
> 
> 
> Hi Spencer,
> 
>    I am not sure if this is going down the path that the 
> actual register
> request uses a Tel: URI.
> 
>    If so, I don't see why that needs to be the case. The 
> REGISTER itself
> can still be done per Martini-Shaken with a SIP URI 
> representing the SIP
> PBX. In fact, I am not sure too much has to change with Martini-Shaken
> unless you want to enforce use of a Tel URI format for requests sent
> towards the SIP PBX.
> 
>    Thanks
>       Brian
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [e-mail] [mailto:[e-mail]] On
> Behalf Of Spencer Dawkins
> Sent: Thursday, January 28, 2010 4:39 PM
> To: Eric Burger; Dean Willis
> Cc: [e-mail]
> Subject: Re: [martini] Proposed work split:
> tackletelephone-numberregistration first
> 
> OK, this discussion continues to be lovely. Thanks again for listening
> to the people you're talking to ("plays well with others" is
> under-appreciated, once we get out of primary school, but *I* 
> appreciate
> it!)
> 
> After reading this thread down through Eric's note below, I have a few
> requests, as co-chair.
> 
> We're talking about E.164 numbers like we can easily identify them. My
> understanding from Tuesday's call was that people on the call thought
> the only way we could unambiguously know that we had an E.164 
> number was
> if we had a tel: URI. If people on this list want to challenge that
> assertion, this would be a great time to say so - please push 
> back Real
> Soon Now.
> 
> If that's true, we're talking about using Tel: URIs. Dean has asserted
> that this would require an update to 3261. I'm not a genius 
> of 3261, but
> some of you guys are - could you point us to what you think 
> needs to be
> updated?
> 
> My quick read turned up this text in Section 4, page 17:
> 
>    Registration is another common operation in SIP.  
> Registration is one
>    way that the biloxi.com server can learn the current 
> location of Bob.
>    Upon initialization, and at periodic intervals, Bob's SIP 
> phone sends
>    REGISTER messages to a server in the biloxi.com domain 
> known as a SIP
>    registrar.  The REGISTER messages associate Bob's SIP or SIPS URI
>    (sip:[e-mail]) with the machine into which he is currently
>    logged (conveyed as a SIP or SIPS URI in the Contact header field).
> 
> Dean, Is this what you were thinking of? Are there other places that
> also need to change?
> 
> As I read http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-peterson-rai-rfc3427bis-04.txt,
> Section 2.1, this change would have to go through SIPCORE, 
> because it's
> an update to 3261. If you know of obvious land mines that we would be
> walking into if we propose this change, please say so Real Soon Now.
> (One obvious land mine is that DISPATCH isn't meeting in 
> Anaheim, so the
> proposal would have to be DISPATCHed on the mailing list in 
> order to do
> something before IETF 78 - are there OTHERS?)
> 
> Finally, if you believe that embracing tel: URIs is the wrong thing to
> do, please say so, Real Soon Now.
> 
> The milestones that we committed to in
> http://tools.ietf.org/wg/martini/charters have us adopting a working
> group SOLUTION draft in January. We're not late yet, but it's the 28th
> of January in my time zone. If we are late, where late is measured in
> days, I can live with that, but if we are late, where late is measured
> in IETF meeting cycles, that's going to be a problem.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Spencer, as co-chair
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Eric Burger" <[e-mail]>
> To: "Dean Willis" <[e-mail]>
> Cc: <[e-mail]>
> Sent: Thursday, January 28, 2010 12:32 PM
> Subject: Re: [martini] Proposed work split: tackle
> telephone-numberregistration first
> 
> 
> > If you ask me (why can't I stay in retirement?), the E.164 situation
> is
> > not only a simplification, but just about the only thing that is
> sensible
> > for MARTINI to work on.
> >
> > The E.164 situation is a clear, present, industry-is-begging-for-a-
> > solution problem.  It is so pressing, the industry will tell us (the
> > IETF) to get stuffed and do something stupid if we cannot deliver
> > something that is not at its core fundamentally broken.
> >
> > I do not think anyone can have an issue with mechanisms 
> that translate
> a
> > string of digits into an AOR that might cross domain boundaries.
> This is
> > the E.164 problem statement.
> >
> > If think everyone (with a brain) SHOULD have issues with a mechanism
> that
> > magically mungs "sip:[e-mail]" into
> "sip:[e-mail] "
> > while at the same time www.neustar.biz is really a neustar.biz
> domain.
> > That really would be creating a parallel DNS, which, as one  of the
> major
> > DNS operators, would really, really be "less than ideal"  and have a
> whole
> > host of security and integrity issues.
> >
> > THEREFORE, I would propose that we split this work into two phases:
> >   Phase 1: Deliver an E.164 solution, preferably in the next few
> months,
> > so the industry does not ignore the IETF.
> >
> >   Phase 2: Deliver the generic solution in the normal, 3-5 year IETF
> > cycle.  This generic solution may or may not encompass 
> E.164 numbers.
> As
> > Doug Sauder points out, E.164 numbers and their infrastructure are
> > different.  Thus a different E.164 registration model from 
> generic SIP
> > URI provisioning models would neither be a burden on industry nor
> create
> > backwards-compatibility issues for the generic solution.
> >
> > Note that if we do not deliver Phase 1 in a very, very 
> timely manner,
> the
> > less-than-idea industry solution just might blow up the  possibility
> for
> > the generic solution, which would be considerably less  than ideal.
> >
> > On Jan 27, 2010, at 1:16 AM, Dean Willis wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> We seem to have an urgent need for a near-term solution for dealing
> with
> >> the subset of the MARTINI problem that, loosely defined, 
> covers  the
> >> "telephone number" problem.
> >>
> >> The typical scenario here is SIP trunking, wherein a SIP Service
> >> Provider (SSP) provides an ISDN-PRI like service over IP to a
> customer's
> >> PBX (or PBXes). In this model, the SSP maps a whole  bunch 
>  of phone
> >> numbers to the PBXes. This mapping is somewhat  dynamic, 
> because the
> >> PBXes usually have DHCP addresses, and don't  have DNS entries that
> point
> >> A records at the PBX in any sort of  particularly useful way (maybe
> >> something like dhcp-10-1-2-3- example.com).
> >>
> >> So what we need is a way for a PBX, when it reboots (or perhaps
> >> periodically) to say to the SSP "Here I Am; You may now send any
> calls
> >> for my assigned phone numbers to my current Contact."
> >>
> >> This is indeed a "registration" problem, but it isn't necessarily a
> >> "domain registration problem". The only reason domains get mixed
> into
> >> this scenario at all is that we sometimes encode telephone  numbers
> as
> >> the user parts of SIP URIs, and those SIP URIs have a  domain part
> >> attached to them.
> >>
> >> More interestingly, this problem is a tiny subset of the whole
> MARTINI
> >> dynamic binding problem, and it potentially can be solved  
> much more
> >> simply than the general problem.
> >>
> >> On today's Interim II call, Richard, Adam and I raised the idea of
> >> dividing our problem space, and taking on a near-term milestone for
> >> delivering a MARTINI solution for registering contacts to a proxy,
> where
> >> that proxy maps one or more telephone numbers to the contact.
> >>
> >> We certainly intend to go on and tackle the more general domain-
> >> registration problem, but I (and I believe Adam and 
> Richard) believe
> >> that we get a lot out of tackling the telephone-number 
> subset first.
> >>
> >> In particular, we believe that this approach solves many of the
> domain
> >> "responsibility" questions, simplifies the TLS keying/ 
> certification
> >> model immensely, eliminates the cognitive overload of  
> using REGISTER
> to
> >> bind a "domain" to a Contact, "route  authentication", and a good
> many
> >> other open issues that plague our  current drafts.
> >>
> >>
> >> Open questions relating to this approach include:
> >>
> >> 1) Do we deal only with E.164 numbers, or do we need to deal with
> >> private-number "phone contexts"?
> >>
> >> 2) D owe need to explicitly encode the telephone numbers being
> >> registered in the REGISTER request (either directly or through some
> sort
> >> of regexp), or is it adequate to rely on provisioning of 
> the  SSP and
> PBX
> >> (and any UAs) to statically bind the numbers to the PBX  identity,
> and
> >> then dynamically only register the PBX identity to the  
> PBX contact?
> >>
> >> 3) Can we "register" with a tel: URI as the "To" value? (this seems
> to
> >> require extending RFC 3261)? Note that "tel:" can express 
> both E. 164
> >> numbers and private phone-contexts in one format.
> >>
> >> 4) What happens with GRUUs?
> >>
> >> I believe all of these issues are quite tractable, if we accept the
> >> fundamental idea of splitting the phone-number problem off from the
> more
> >> general domain-registration, and recognize the possibility 
> that  the
> >> solutions to the two problem may reasonably be quite 
> different  from
> each
> >> other.
> >>
> >> So, what do you people think? Is it worth trying to drink the
> MARTINI
> >> elephant one sip at a time, or are we going to treat the  
> whole thing
> >> like a tequila shot and just slam it down?
> >>
> >> --
> >> Dean
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> martini mailing list
> >> [e-mail]
> >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/martini
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > martini mailing list
> > [e-mail]
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/martini
> 
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> 
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