RE: [AVT] RE: [MMUSIC] questions about grouping media streams in RTP andSDP (RFC3388 etc), advice needed
"Even, Roni" <roni.even@polycom.co.il> Thu, 07 June 2007 20:06 UTC
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Subject: RE: [AVT] RE: [MMUSIC] questions about grouping media streams in RTP andSDP (RFC3388 etc), advice needed
Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2007 23:06:45 +0300
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Thread-Topic: [AVT] RE: [MMUSIC] questions about grouping media streams in RTP andSDP (RFC3388 etc), advice needed
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From: "Even, Roni" <roni.even@polycom.co.il>
To: Thomas Schierl <schierl@hhi.fhg.de>, Dave Singer <singer@apple.com>, mmusic <mmusic@ietf.org>, IETF AVT WG <avt@ietf.org>
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Cc: "Clinton Priddle (KI/EAB)" <clinton.priddle@ericsson.com>, Stephan.Wenger@nokia.com
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Hi, My view is that you have similarity in the need for dependencies between streams but the grouping logic is different. In the layered codec the grouping is for a group that you can use all or part of while in the repair case you may take one or the other. Roni Even > -----Original Message----- > From: Thomas Schierl [mailto:schierl@hhi.fhg.de] > Sent: Thursday, June 07, 2007 8:46 PM > To: 'Dave Singer'; Even, Roni; 'mmusic'; 'IETF AVT WG' > Cc: Stephan.Wenger@nokia.com; 'Clinton Priddle (KI/EAB)' > Subject: RE: [AVT] RE: [MMUSIC] questions about grouping media streams in > RTP andSDP (RFC3388 etc), advice needed > > Hi Dave, > > I think there is a strong relation of your problem and the > http://tools.ietf.org/wg/mmusic/draft-schierl-mmusic-layered-codec-03.tx t > In this draft, we described media dependency in general, not only for > scalable video. Currently, two types of dependencies are defined: layered > and mdc assuming the media is partially transported in different RTP > sessions. There is not requirement, that the part of the media is > independently decodable. It would be easy to integrate your needs, if they > should not be already covered. > > > Thomas > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Dave Singer [mailto:singer@apple.com] > > Sent: Tuesday, June 05, 2007 8:34 AM > > To: Even, Roni; mmusic; IETF AVT WG > > Cc: Clinton Priddle (KI/EAB) > > Subject: [AVT] RE: [MMUSIC] questions about grouping media streams in > RTP > > andSDP (RFC3388 etc), advice needed > > > > At 10:03 +0300 5/06/07, Even, Roni wrote: > > >Dave, > > >For layered encoding there is a proposal for a new grouping attribute > in > > >http://tools.ietf.org/wg/mmusic/draft-schierl-mmusic-layered-codec- > 03.tx > > >t > > > > I don't think this is a layered coding issue, either, alas. > > > > >I looked at RFC3388 and I think that FID is not the answer to your > > >requirement as you mentioned > > > > > >To me it looks like what you are looking for is a way to specify > > >alternate offers. > > > > No, these streams are not alternatives to each other in the regular > > sense. Nor is this really used in offer/answer; it's more an issue > > for multicast. In multicast, you open the tune-in stream and the > > base stream, grab the first I-frame that arrives (in either) and then > > drop the tune-in stream. > > > > Yes, we're aware that the recipient needs to be able to tell which is > > the base and which is the tune-in. > > > > >If this is the case I have similar requirements and > > >would be happy to support such work. > > > > > >You also need a way to give semantics to the "repair" stream, this can > > >be done based on the content attribute from RFC 4796 or using a > > >dependency attribute see in Schierl's draft. The mid tag is not enough > > >for the receiver to know what you meant by this offer and which stream > > >is the repair. > > > > > >Here is an example for a solution using a new Alternatives grouping > > >attribute and giving semantics to the repair stream > > > > > >By using the grouping attribute in the offer you can know if the > > >answerer understood the grouping since if he does not than he will send > > >an answer with no a=group > > > > > >v=0 > > >o=bob 280744730 28977631 IN IP4 host.example.com > > >s= > > >t=0 0 > > > > > >a=group:ALTS 1 2 > > >a=group:ALTS 1 3 > > > > > >m=audio 6886 RTP/AVP 0 > > >c=IN IP6 2001:0600::1 > > >a=mid:1 > > > > > >m=video 9000 RTP/AVP 100 > > >c=IN IP4 192.0.2.2 > > >a=rtpmap:100 H263-1998 > > >a=mid:2 > > > > > >m=video 9002 RTP/AVP 101 > > >c=IN IP4 192.0.2.2 > > >a=rtpmap:101 H263-1998 > > >a=mid:3 > > >a=content:repair=2 or a=depend:repair=2 > > > > > > > > >Roni Even > > > > > >> -----Original Message----- > > >> From: Dave Singer [mailto:singer@apple.com] > > >> Sent: Monday, June 04, 2007 7:19 PM > > >> To: mmusic; IETF AVT WG > > >> Cc: Clinton Priddle (KI/EAB) > > >> Subject: [MMUSIC] questions about grouping media streams in RTP and > > >SDP > > >> (RFC3388 etc), advice needed > > >> > > >> Hi > > >> > > >> we have a need to group together two media streams, in the style of > > >RFC > > >> 3388 <http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc3388.txt> but we're unsure whether > an > > >> existing group type is suitable or not, and if it's not, we'd like > to > > >> agree on a new one, and document it (presumably in an RFC). > > >> > > >> What we have is a normal media stream, and a separate 'repair' or > > >> 'entry' stream, that can be used when tuning in, or after loss, but > is > > >> otherwise un-needed. An example might be a video stream with a low > > >> I-frame interval (say every 15 seconds), with a repair stream which > > >has > > >> only I-frames that are equivalent to the time-parallel non-I frame, > at > > >a > > >> frequency of say 1 per second. > > >> > > >> It's not clear to us whether this is "one media flow" in the sense > of > > >> FID, or not. The example offers AMR and GSM audio, which are > > >> alternatives, and DTMF tones along with audio, which are > supplementary > > >> to each other. Perhaps we fall afoul of this restriction: > > >> > > >> "An application that encodes the same media using different codecs > > >> simultaneously MUST NOT use FID to group those media lines." > > >> > > >> or this one, for layered encoding: > > >> > > >> "FID MUST NOT be used to group "m" lines that do not represent the > > >same > > >> information." (Though how DTMF tones and their associated audio > pass > > >> this test is not clear). > > >> > > >> Nor is it clear that the FEC group of RFC 4756 is right, either. > For > > >a > > >> start, we may wish to use this new ID in combination with FEC, and > > >> secondly this tune-in stream has different characteristics. For > > >> example, one can typically ignore all FEC and (as long as there are > no > > >> errors) decode the stream correctly. Ignoring the tune-in stream > > > > entirely may mean that you will never find a tune-in point, making > > the > > >> normal stream useless. > > >> > > >> So, can we use FID for associating a repair stream with its base (we > > >tag > > >> the streams so we know which is which, of course)? > > >> > > >> p.s. RFC 4756 claims in the IANA section that the FEC group is > > >> registered under SDP characteristics, but actually I can find no > > >> registry anywhere in IANA of group types. > > >> > > >> > > >> -- > > >> David Singer > > >> Apple/QuickTime > > >> > > >> _______________________________________________ > > >> mmusic mailing list > > >> mmusic@ietf.org > > >> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mmusic > > > > > > -- > > David Singer > > Apple/QuickTime > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Audio/Video Transport Working Group > > avt@ietf.org > > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/avt _______________________________________________ mmusic mailing list mmusic@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mmusic
- [MMUSIC] New draft: multiple times problem descri… Miguel Garcia
- RE: [MMUSIC] New draft: multiple times problem de… Dan Wing
- Re: [MMUSIC] New draft: multiple times problem de… Miguel Garcia
- RE: [MMUSIC] New draft: multiple times problem de… Christer Holmberg (JO/LMF)
- Re: [MMUSIC] New draft: multiple times problem de… Miguel Garcia
- Re: [MMUSIC] New draft: multiple times problem de… Colin Perkins
- [MMUSIC] Moving draft-marjou-behave-app-rtp-keepa… Colin Perkins
- [MMUSIC] RE: Moving draft-marjou-behave-app-rtp-k… Dan Wing
- [MMUSIC] Re: [BEHAVE] RE: Moving draft-marjou-beh… Lars Eggert
- [MMUSIC] questions about grouping media streams i… Dave Singer
- [MMUSIC] Re: [AVT] RE: Moving draft-marjou-behave… Cullen Jennings
- [MMUSIC] RE: Moving draft-marjou-behave-app-rtp-k… Even, Roni
- [MMUSIC] RE: [BEHAVE] RE: Moving draft-marjou-beh… Dan Wing
- RE: [MMUSIC] questions about grouping media strea… Even, Roni
- [MMUSIC] Re: [BEHAVE] RE: Moving draft-marjou-beh… Xavier Marjou
- [MMUSIC] Re: [BEHAVE] RE: Moving draft-marjou-beh… Colin Perkins
- AW: [AVT] RE: [MMUSIC] questions about grouping m… Kalleitner, Franz
- [MMUSIC] Re: [BEHAVE] RE: Moving draft-marjou-beh… Lars Eggert
- RE: [MMUSIC] questions about grouping media strea… Dave Singer
- RE: [MMUSIC] questions about grouping media strea… Even, Roni
- [MMUSIC] Re: [AVT] questions about grouping media… Andrea Lorenzo VITALI
- [MMUSIC] Re: [AVT] questions about grouping media… Dave Singer
- RE: [AVT] RE: [MMUSIC] questions about grouping m… Thomas Schierl
- RE: [AVT] RE: [MMUSIC] questions about grouping m… Dave Singer
- RE: [AVT] RE: [MMUSIC] questions about grouping m… Even, Roni
- RE: [AVT] RE: [MMUSIC] questions about grouping m… Thomas Schierl
- RE: [AVT] RE: [MMUSIC] questions about grouping m… Thomas Schierl
- Re: [AVT] RE: [MMUSIC] questions about grouping m… Stephan Wenger
- RE: [AVT] RE: [MMUSIC] questions about grouping m… Even, Roni
- RE: [AVT] RE: [MMUSIC] questions about grouping m… Thomas Schierl
- Re: [AVT] RE: [MMUSIC] questions about grouping m… Stephan Wenger
- [MMUSIC] Re: [AVT] Moving draft-marjou-behave-app… Colin Perkins
- Re: AW: [AVT] RE: [MMUSIC] questions about groupi… Dave Singer
- RE: AW: [AVT] RE: [MMUSIC] questions about groupi… Even, Roni
- RE: AW: [AVT] RE: [MMUSIC] questions about groupi… Dave Singer
- Re: AW: [AVT] RE: [MMUSIC] questions about groupi… Randell Jesup
- Re: AW: [AVT] RE: [MMUSIC] questions about groupi… Dave Singer
- RE: AW: [AVT] RE: [MMUSIC] questions about groupi… Even, Roni
- RE: AW: [AVT] RE: [MMUSIC] questions about groupi… Even, Roni
- RE: AW: [AVT] RE: [MMUSIC] questions about groupi… Dave Singer